General Politics Thread

[doulikefish]

6 minutes ago, RedRob72 said:

They will be rightly judged on their record just like any other Government, the prediction is that their performance will not lead to a clamour for an independent Scotland run by the SNP, and yes you're right Gordon I have said that all along.

Thats twice you have said an indy scotland would be run by the snp,your"i want whats best for scotland"mask is slipping bob and your hatred for the snp is shining through

[Loondave1]

That's a bit like some bore predicting all day that the Sun's going to set. Of course it will. You don't win any points for predicting that. You lose points for thinking it's a worthwhile contribution to any conversation whatsoever.

I can't be sure of course, but I'd bet decent money that the last decade's been littered with similar failed predictions about the fall of the SNP from yourself.

Realistically can't see the SNP being in any bother short to medium term but it has definitely peaked and there are some minor grumblings but nothing to worry them.I think in their shoes though i would pay attention to the perception that they are sleeping on the job as regards day to day stuff while focusing on the Indy2 thing.Regardless if you think its true or not these things can gain traction eventually.Ive voted since 1979 and seen the Tory party,Labour party and Lib Dems all brought to their knees.The Torys and Labour both from vast "unassailable" positions.Ive heard all about the imminent "death" of the Torys and "death" of Labour twice with Foot and Corbyn and seen them win massive majorities several elections later.Nothing is guaranteed and its fatal to think that or end up in a mindset that you are "the only show on town".Despite self confessed trolling otherwise im not discounting that i might in different circumstances be sympathetic to an Indy or even federal Scotland.Im not going to be persuaded by evangelical roasters on here though so don't bother your keyboard today.

[Gordon EF]

7 minutes ago, RedRob72 said:

They will be rightly judged on their record just like any other Government, the prediction is that their performance will not lead to a clamour for an independent Scotland run by the SNP, and yes you're right Gordon I have said that all along.

Were they being "rightly judged on their record" when they consecutively increased their share of the vote in the 2 Holyrood and 2 Westminster elections since they became the government?

The idea that the majority of unionists are opposing independence based on a considered analysis of the SNP's handling of health, education and transport over the past 9 years is an absolute cracker. Half the old yins tottering out to vote No two years ago could barely tell you what day of the week it was.

[Peppino Impastato]

He hates the snp as he's a raging Britnat bigot, nothing with perceived competence.   This is a bigot who admits he voted tory last time as they are the staunchest defenders of the union, he has no interest in competence just pure naked British nationalism. 

[Gordon EF]

1 minute ago, Loondave1 said:

Realistically can't see the SNP being in any bother short to medium term but it has definitely peaked and there are some minor grumblings but nothing to worry them.I think in their shoes though i would pay attention to the perception that they are sleeping on the job as regards day to day stuff while focusing on the Indy2 thing.Regardless if you think its true or not these things can gain traction eventually.Ive voted since 1979 and seen the Tory party,Labour party and Lib Dems all brought to their knees.The Torys and Labour both from vast "unassailable" positions.Ive heard all about the imminent "death" of the Torys and "death" of Labour twice with Foot and Corbyn and seen them win massive majorities several elections later.Nothing is guaranteed and its fatal to think that or end up in a mindset that you are "the only show on town".Despite self confessed trolling otherwise im not discounting that i might in different circumstances be sympathetic to an Indy or even federal Scotland.Im not going to be persuaded by evangelical roasters on here though so don't bother your keyboard today.

I'm pretty sure I've spent the past few posts emphatically stating that of course the SNP are heading for a fall. It's the only logical conclusion unless you think they can do what no other party/group/faction has done in the history of mankind and remain in power perpetually. You'd have to be insane to think that.

[Redstarstranraer]

In 2007 the SNP picked up 664,227 constituency votes and another 633,401 on the list.

In 2011 the SNP picked up 902,915 constituency votes and another 876,421 on the list.

This very year they picked up 1,059,897 constituency votes and another 953,587 on the list.

Looks like RedRob is right enough and folk really are getting sick of their 'emperor's new clothes act'.

The Scottish electorate clearly think that the SNP administration at Holyrood is managing things competently enough, indeed the election results if anything point to increasing satisfaction with their policies.  Of course we all know the headlines are constantly screaming about crises in every sphere of government endeavour but it would appear that the electorate isn't buying this narrative of never-ending failure (or at least nobody but the hardcore anti-SNP types are).

Certainly the SNP aren't perfect, and things could always be better, but their competency and record in government have clearly been positively assessed by the Scottish electorate in general.  There is absolutely no evidence for the perpetual mewlings of the usual suspects on here that they've been 'found out'.

As has been said before in any case before the electorate desert them there has to be a credible place for them to go.  The tories offer nothing but Ruth Davidson wrapping herself in the Union Jack and are still toxic to many Scottish voters.  In any case they are also stymied by being the party of government in the UK as a whole, meaning the Scots get to see what sort of policies they would likely implement up here if they got the chance, and I doubt many are tempted by what they see.  Plus if we're talking competence then the Scottish government looks positively stellar compared to a Westminster government that can't even decide what their most important policy actually really means (i.e. Brexit).  It's only today that the government had to deny that the opinions of the Foreign Secretary were government foreign policy ffs.

Labour aren't a credible threat up here despite having another 're-launch' (and wheeling out Gordon Brown) almost every three months.  

Nothing to suggest then that SNP support is collapsing or is about to any time soon then.  As convincing an argument could easily be made that support for the Union is about to tank because of the total incompetence of Theresa May's gang.  

Then again as has been said above nobody's buying this idea that hardcore unionists would actually vote for independence if the SNP were 'more competent' (or indeed that they'd maybe vote for it were it proposed by some other party), it's just a disingenuous, and unconvincing, attempt to portray their support for the Union as something other than nationalism.

[Loondave1]

I'm pretty sure I've spent the past few posts emphatically stating that of course the SNP are heading for a fall. It's the only logical conclusion unless you think they can do what no other party/group/faction has done in the history of mankind and remain in power perpetually. You'd have to be insane to think that.

Doubt it will qualify as a fall but some realignment will happen in time.Doubt Holyrood will see any majority admin again which is a healthy thing really.

[Gordon EF]

9 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

Doubt it will qualify as a fall but some realignment will happen in time.Doubt Holyrood will see any majority admin again which is a healthy thing really.

As long as the Greens continue growing to make up the shortfall, I suppose it's alright.

[renton]

I sometimes think the SNP has a built in advantage with respect to the Unionist parties: They can be both Government and Opposition, governor and crusader. Precisely because they are not a branch of a larger UK party and owe no allegiance to someone else holding the purse strings. Opponents like to mock this as the SNP's 'all Westminster's fault' attack but it has the advantage of being largely fact based - the devolution settlement keeps tight reigns on Scottish self government, and you never have to scratch the devolved surface very far to find the Westminster strings. This allows the SNP to explicitly criticize the UK government and implicitly mock their Holyrood rivals all at once. It means they can combine the artifice of efficient management with the social crusading of an opposition movement. More than that, through independence they have a unifying cause, one that largely stops the damaging faction forming and infighting that acts like entropy on all political parties.

 

[Redstarstranraer]

Proper incompetence:

Boris Johnson was not representing the government’s views on Saudi Arabia when he accused the state of abusing Islam and acting as a puppeteer in proxy wars, Downing Street has said.

The foreign secretary was setting out his own views on Saudi Arabia and Iran at a conference in Rome last week, the prime minister’s spokeswoman said on Thursday, but would be sticking to the government’s line when he visited Saudi ministers this weekend.

“I’ve set out what the PM views are, and those are the foreign secretary’s views, they are not the government’s views on Saudi and its role in the region.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/08/boris-johnsons-remarks-about-saudi-arabia-not-the-governments-view

 

[Peppino Impastato]

Theresa may dodging questions on human rights as she visits a dictatorship to sell them guns.   Then talks about a red White and blue brexit,  bloody nationalists eh.

[strichener]

27 minutes ago, Redstarstranraer said:

In 2007 the SNP picked up 664,227 constituency votes and another 633,401 on the list.

In 2011 the SNP picked up 902,915 constituency votes and another 876,421 on the list.

This very year they picked up 1,059,897 constituency votes and another 953,587 on the list.

Looks like RedRob is right enough and folk really are getting sick of their 'emperor's new clothes act'.

The Scottish electorate clearly think that the SNP administration at Holyrood is managing things competently enough, indeed the election results if anything point to increasing satisfaction with their policies.  Of course we all know the headlines are constantly screaming about crises in every sphere of government endeavour but it would appear that the electorate isn't buying this narrative of never-ending failure (or at least nobody but the hardcore anti-SNP types are).

Certainly the SNP aren't perfect, and things could always be better, but their competency and record in government have clearly been positively assessed by the Scottish electorate in general.  There is absolutely no evidence for the perpetual mewlings of the usual suspects on here that they've been 'found out'.

As has been said before in any case before the electorate desert them there has to be a credible place for them to go.  The tories offer nothing but Ruth Davidson wrapping herself in the Union Jack and are still toxic to many Scottish voters.  In any case they are also stymied by being the party of government in the UK as a whole, meaning the Scots get to see what sort of policies they would likely implement up here if they got the chance, and I doubt many are tempted by what they see.  Plus if we're talking competence then the Scottish government looks positively stellar compared to a Westminster government that can't even decide what their most important policy actually really means (i.e. Brexit).  It's only today that the government had to deny that the opinions of the Foreign Secretary were government foreign policy ffs.

Labour aren't a credible threat up here despite having another 're-launch' (and wheeling out Gordon Brown) almost every three months.  

Nothing to suggest then that SNP support is collapsing or is about to any time soon then.  As convincing an argument could easily be made that support for the Union is about to tank because of the total incompetence of Theresa May's gang.  

Then again as has been said above nobody's buying this idea that hardcore unionists would actually vote for independence if the SNP were 'more competent' (or indeed that they'd maybe vote for it were it proposed by some other party), it's just a disingenuous, and unconvincing, attempt to portray their support for the Union as something other than nationalism.

Sorry but that statement is just absolute nonsense.  The lack of credible alternatives is a far more likely reason than anybody being increasingly satisfied with the SNP and is borne out by the remainder of your post.

[renton]

1 minute ago, strichener said:

Sorry but that statement is just absolute nonsense.  The lack of credible alternatives is a far more likely reason than anybody being increasingly satisfied with the SNP and is borne out by the remainder of your post.

If that were the case, surely turnout would be suffering, as a lack of credible alternatives would push a lot of people into the not voting camp, rather than actively voting for people they had no faith in. And turnout was actually the highest it's ever been.

[Peppino Impastato]

Yeah totally,  increasing your share of the vote in consecutive elections isn't in any way a sign of people's satisfaction in your competence.   Makes sense. 

[Redstarstranraer]

3 minutes ago, strichener said:

Sorry but that statement is just absolute nonsense.  The lack of credible alternatives is a far more likely reason than anybody being increasingly satisfied with the SNP and is borne out by the remainder of your post.

Sorry but there has to be a clear correlation between more voters in absolute terms actually voting for the SNP and approval of their policies.  It isn't as if their share of the vote just stayed steady whilst everyone else's declined.

 

1 minute ago, renton said:

f that were the case, surely turnout would be suffering, as a lack of credible alternatives would push a lot of people into the not voting camp, rather than actively voting for people they had no faith in. And turnout was actually the highest it's ever been.

So basically this ^

[Peppino Impastato]

Exactly as happened under new labour,  the number of voters fell off a cliff,  now centre right cretins like jmo are killing labour chasing soft tries by veering right when the path to electoral success lies in veering left to target those who were so disillusioned by Blair they don't vote anymore. 

[Loondave1]

Exactly as happened under new labour,  the number of voters fell off a cliff,  now centre right cretins like jmo are killing labour chasing soft tries by veering right when the path to electoral success lies in veering left to target those who were so disillusioned by Blair they don't vote anymore. 

Corbyn wins by a massive majority then ?

[Peppino Impastato]

Youre on block post twice if it's important. 

[hehawhehaw]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

Were they being "rightly judged on their record" when they consecutively increased their share of the vote in the 2 Holyrood and 2 Westminster elections since they became the government?

The idea that the majority of unionists are opposing independence based on a considered analysis of the SNP's handling of health, education and transport over the past 9 years is an absolute cracker. Half the old yins tottering out to vote No two years ago could barely tell you what day of the week it was.

That's not true! It was on... It started with a T, So it was either today or tomorrow, of that week. 

[strichener]

38 minutes ago, renton said:

If that were the case, surely turnout would be suffering, as a lack of credible alternatives would push a lot of people into the not voting camp, rather than actively voting for people they had no faith in. And turnout was actually the highest it's ever been.

Yet in terms of percentage, the SNP vote went down.  I don't think we have to look much past the referendum to see the basis of the last couple of elections.  This can clearly be seen by the increase in the Green's vote.  The referendum invigorated or, for some, re-invigorated people, it was even evident on this site that numerous posters were going SNP/Green on the basis of Independence primarily.

Unless of course we are going to be claiming that the increase in the Green's vote was due to the competence that they have shown in governing over the last parliament.   Oh and the Tories...

Edited December 8, 2016 by strichener