General Politics Thread

[Antiochas III]

Maybe the concern then is the fact that ALL Muslims need to be considered as religious zealots. The figure was 52% of ALL Muslims in the sample thought homosexuality should be illegal. I can't see 52% of British Christians or Jews supporting that. I don't know enough about other religions to guess if that level of homophobia is prevelant.

Maybe the sexism doesn't surprise you, but if it is a reflection of home life of these kids does it worry you?

It was 51% of Church goers surveyed that thought Homosexuality was wrong and should be banned the last time. I'd better it be larger % in other Christian countries.

In the survey, did it tell you all the details, like the amount of people surveyed, how many in each age group, how many were 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation. How many were males, how many were females.

[Granny Danger]

It was 51% of Church goers surveyed that thought Homosexuality was wrong and should be banned the last time. I'd better it be larger % in other Christian countries.

In the survey, did it tell you all the details, like the amount of people surveyed, how many in each age group, how many were 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation. How many were males, how many were females.

I'm not sure what your point is. Do you agree with the 51%? Did this 51% want homosexual acts to be illegal (because that's the comparison)?

Personally I'm less worried about what 'Churchgoers' in Scotland and the UK as a whole think because their numbers, and therefore their influence in our society, is decreasing. However any group whose numbers and influence are growing and who hold such illiberal and prejudiced views do cause me concern.

The results of the survey are available on line; from what I can see it's a representative sample based on age and gender.

[ScotSquid]

I think you raise an important point. I've heard hand wringing apologists who should know better refusing to criticise Sharia Law for example, despite its clear and unambiguous misogyny.

When you look at Islam and Christianity and their penchant for marginalising and downgrading women, its no surprise adherents believe that's not only acceptable but right.

[Jambomo]

I clicked through to what the guardian says is the survey, the methodology appears to be password protected and not available but the results were. I found them here: http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-muslims-survey-for-channel-4/

The first thing that strikes me is that they only surveyed 1081 people. Considering this is meant to be what all Muslims think, and considering there are 2.71 million Muslims in England and Wales alone, this is nowhere near representing what all Muslims think.

[ScotSquid]

http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitudes-towards-gay-rights/

[ScotSquid]

I clicked through to what the guardian says is the survey, the methodology appears to be password protected and not available but the results were. I found them here: http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-muslims-survey-for-channel-4/

The first thing that strikes me is that they only surveyed 1081 people. Considering this is meant to be what all Muslims think, and considering there are 2.71 million Muslims in England and Wales alone, this is nowhere near representing what all Muslims think.

What? I'm not sure you understand how polling works.

[banana]

I clicked through to what the guardian says is the survey, the methodology appears to be password protected and not available but the results were. I found them here: http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-muslims-survey-for-channel-4/

The first thing that strikes me is that they only surveyed 1081 people. Considering this is meant to be what all Muslims think, and considering there are 2.71 million Muslims in England and Wales alone, this is nowhere near representing what all Muslims think.

 

Thanks for that. I just trawled through a dozen media reports, none linked to the study.

 

That sample size is fine, the concern is whether it's representative or not. There are claims that the polling targeted more conservative Muslim areas, while ICM counter-claims that it hasn't seen inconsistencies between results from conservative Muslim areas to less conservative Muslim areas. Also note that the results of telephone polls should be taken with a pinch of salt. I've worked in phone-based market research, there are many things that can potentially skew data.

 

The Guardian is unsurprisingly up in arms deconstructing what's wrong with the data. Pity they couldn't do the same with studies used for their own propaganda.

[ScotSquid]

In a previous 2009 Gallup poll 0 out of 500 British Muslim respondents said they believed homosexuality was morally acceptable.

A different question to the criminality question above but nonetheless an indicator of the prevailing mood. As the graph above shows with Christian and atheist Britons, there is a definite trend in the right direction with regards to normalising gay relationships but its no real surprise Islam is at the back of the queue being dragged kicking and screaming.

[Jambomo]

What? I'm not sure you understand how polling works.

I understand perfectly well how polling works.

Maybe I should have been clearer though - this survey on its own isn't enough to base a show on, where that show is claiming to show how British Muslims think. The sample simply isn't big enough.

[ScotSquid]

Survey from 2009

[renton]

I understand perfectly well how polling works.

Maybe I should have been clearer though - this survey on its own isn't enough to base a show on, where that show is claiming to show how British Muslims think. The sample simply isn't big enough.

 

It is, statistically speaking. You could increase the sample size ten fold and only reduce your error from +/-3 points to +/- 1 point. What matters is, what questions were asked, how were they asked and was the sample weighted to be representative.

[ScotSquid]

I understand perfectly well how polling works.

Maybe I should have been clearer though - this survey on its own isn't enough to base a show on, where that show is claiming to show how British Muslims think. The sample simply isn't big enough.

What should the sample size have been? 2,000? 3,000? 3,000,000?

You just don't understand how polling works. That's the problem here.

[Jambomo]

It is, statistically speaking. You could increase the sample size ten fold and only reduce your error from +/-3 points to +/- 1 point. What matters is, what questions were asked, how were they asked and was the sample weighted to be representative.

The sample size is fine for the survey that it is conducting. I mean it's too small for what they want to do with it.

What I am disagreeing with is using it to base a show on which is claiming to understand what Muslims in the UK think. There are 2.71 Muslims in England and Wales, 77,000 in Scotland. You cannot extrapolate accurately, from 1081 people what all of these people think.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Jambomo

[Ad Lib]

The sample size is fine for the survey that it is conducting. I mean it's too small for what they want to do with it.

What I am disagreeing with is using it to base a show on which is claiming to understand what Muslims in the UK think. There are 2.71 Muslims in England and Wales, 77,000 in Scotland. You cannot extrapolate accurately, from 1081 people what all of these people think.

You can if the demographics are done properly and the questions don't skew. That's literally what polling does, within a margin of error. Edited April 18, 2016 by Ad Lib

[renton]

The sample size is fine for the survey that it is conducting. I mean it's too small for what they want to do with it.

What I am disagreeing with is using it to base a show on which is claiming to understand what Muslims in the UK think. There are 2.71 Muslims in England and Wales, 77,000 in Scotland. You cannot extrapolate accurately, from 1081 people what all of these people think.

 

You can though, provided that the sample is demographically representative.

[Granny Danger]

Thanks for that. I just trawled through a dozen media reports, none linked to the study.

 

That sample size is fine, the concern is whether it's representative or not. There are claims that the polling targeted more conservative Muslim areas, while ICM counter-claims that it hasn't seen inconsistencies between results from conservative Muslim areas to less conservative Muslim areas. Also note that the results of telephone polls should be taken with a pinch of salt. I've worked in phone-based market research, there are many things that can potentially skew data.

 

The Guardian is unsurprisingly up in arms deconstructing what's wrong with the data. Pity they couldn't do the same with studies used for their own propaganda.

All the polling was face to face. I am fairly sure that all those carrying out the polling where Muslim, though I cannot be certain.

I'm sure there will be a margin of error given the sample size but there is nothing to suggest that this would significantly skew the results.

There was a suggestion in the programme that one of the 'mistakes' that we have made is to assume that Muslims would grow to accept British values in the same way that other religious groups (Hindus, Sikhs, etc) who have come to Briatin in the past have and would integrate into British society.

However the data suggests this is not the case and that many want a separate society within Britain, including the use of Sharia, whilst others want a Caliphate in the UK that both Muslims and non Muslims would be subject to.

[Wee Willie]

However the data suggests this is not the case and that many want a separate society within Britain, including the use of Sharia, whilst others want a Caliphate in the UK that both Muslims and non Muslims would be subject to.

 

A caliphate is an Islamic state.

It's led by a caliph, who is a political and religious leader who is a successor (caliph) to the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

His power and authority is absolute.

 

As an atheist I'm no sure if I would welcome that.

Mind you if it means getting rid of Mrs Windsor's lot then it cannae be all bad.

Mark me undecided.

Just like in/oot EU.

[NotThePars]

Fairly sure I read sharia law includes a welfare state with free healthcare and other perks. Give me five more years of Tories and i'll consider it.

[ScotSquid]

Fairly sure I read sharia law includes a welfare state with free healthcare and other perks. Give me five more years of Tories and i'll consider it.

I'm fairly sure you didn't.

Certainly not any practical application.

What it certainly does unashamedly do is establish women as the inferior sex, and is openly sexist in its application of laws.

Edited April 18, 2016 by ScotSquid

[banana]

All the polling was face to face. I am fairly sure that all those carrying out the polling where Muslim, though I cannot be certain.

 

 

The methodology link on the ICM website is password protected, and I've only seen vague references to methodology in articles. Where are you reading this?