Scots

[Ad Lib]

What is the percentage of Scottish kids learning foreign languages today?

I would have thought it would have crept up over the years.

I'm pretty sure preponderance of learners of foreign languages has fallen in the last two decades or so. It's been a major concern.

[Gordon EF]

Ordering beers in Benidorm is more useful than ordering beers in Scotland, which they can already do in English.

 

Do you think there are many bars in Benidorm where you can't order beers in English?

[Ad Lib]

Do you think there are many bars in Benidorm where you can't order beers in English?

If there's even one it's at least as many as those that you can't in Scotland.

[Gordon EF]

If there's even one it's at least as many as those that you can't in Scotland.

 

Tbf, a having a cockney accent is probably more useful when ordering beers in Benidorm than being able to speak Spanish.

[vikingTON]

Scots language is important in the right context.

No-one is suggesting that there should not be teaching that relates to it.

 

What is the right context, and what teaching should 'relate to it'? Be very specific.

 

Hint: If your answer ventures into 'as part of the English curriculum - toss the wee parochials another Scots' poem or something' then you're doing it wrong, and you don't actually accept the position of Scots as a stand-alone language.

 

What I won't have those is people dictating that it should be treated like any other language to learn.

 

I don't see anyone "dictating" matters; even leaving that bizarre strop aside, on what basis should it not be treated "like any other language to learn"? Millions of people already operate between Scots and English in spoken conversation, and less often in their written forms, on a daily basis. Why shouldn't those skills be both a) recognised as a bi-lingual exercise and b) developed by what would be a fairly modest need for teaching, given that both Scots and English are entirely native languages in 21st Century Scotland?

 

Personally if we are going to go down that route then let's preserve the one living language we do have in Gaelic and not some pseudo plastic language that no-one can actually agree on.

 

And the mask slips. You are aware that literally every single European language has, at some point or another, existed in various forms prior to standardisation, that their standardisation was in every single case contested by different factions holding to their own scripts, local expressions etc. and that even today standard language usage is nowhere near universal?

 

Though given that you made a laughable comparison with Gaelic, which apparently people can agree on (except on different sides of the North Channel, where it differs), I'm not sure that you're lecturing from a position of any credibility whatsoever.

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by vikingTON

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The majority of us actually speak Scots. Probably easier to keep that alive than to try and re-introduce a language that hardly any of us speak.

No we don't.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

What is the right context, and what teaching should 'relate to it'? Be very specific.

Hint: If your answer ventures into 'as part of the English curriculum - toss the wee parochials another Scots' poem or something' then you're doing it wrong, and you don't actually accept the position of Scots as a stand-alone language.

I don't see anyone "dictating" matters; even leaving that bizarre strop aside, on what basis should it not be treated "like any other language to learn"? Millions of people already operate between Scots and English in spoken conversation, and less often in their written forms, on a daily basis. Why shouldn't those skills be both a) recognised as a bi-lingual exercise and b) developed by what would be a fairly modest need for teaching, given that both Scots and English are entirely native languages in 21st Century Scotland?

No it has to be in context across the curriculum. In any case that is the case if you knew the CfE Es & Os.

As for " millions operate between Scots and English" - on what planet is this?

Operate between Scots English and English perhaps - we might all use some Scots words but there are very few out there who would speak what truly is the Scots language every day.

If I start speaking in broad Dundonian it is absolutely nothing like someone who is broad Glaswegian. That's not because Scots has somehow split into different branches but more to do with Scots English in different parts of Scotland taking on different lingual influences including Scots, Irish and Nordic roots.

What I understand to be Scots is certainly a much purer and distinct form of language from the Scots English that we speak day to day.

Masks slips? Hmm not really - I made pretty clear that what people are trying to pass as Scots is not Scots. If you are going to really make an effort to reinvigorate the Scots language then do it right and not with what is a poor imitation of the Scots language.

As for lecture? Is that not your normal position? The lecturing jumped up little tweenie who thinks he knows it all?

I'll let you in go a wee secret - I've got piles that are probably older and more incisive than you are.

Edited March 18, 2016 by DeeTillEhDeh

[vikingTON]

No it has to be in context across the curriculum. In any case that is the case if you knew the CfE Es & Os.

 

^^^ word salad

 

I asked you to be specific, and instead what was provided was this mealy mouthed set of words with no actual meaning to them whatsoever. Please provide examples of "teaching that relates to it" (Scots language) and where you believe this to be appropriate in the curriculum.

 

As for " millions operate between Scots and English" - on what planet is this?

 

On the planet where millions of Scots speak using and entirely different set of words in Scots, then standard English in turn, according to different contexts every single day. Or unthinkingly transcribe Scots from a spoken conversation into written, standard English forms.

 

Operate between Scots English and English perhaps - we might all use some Scots words but there are very few out there who would speak what truly is the Scots language every day.

 

Oh dear. In your previous posts you bewailed that Scots isn't a proper language, but rather one "that no one can actually agree on" - post #76  on this thread. Now you've flip-flopped into claiming that there is a cast-iron 'true' Scots language, but that's also not relevant because no-one uses it. Make your mind up.

 

If I start speaking in broad Dundonian it is absolutely nothing like someone who is broad Glaswegian. That's not because Scots has somehow split into different branches but more to do with Scots English in different parts of Scotland taking on different lingual influences including Scots, Irish and Nordic roots.

 

Erm yes it is. 'Broad Dundonian and Broad Glaswegian' are far more similar in terms of word usage and forms of speech than other 'broad' forms of speech from, say, Yorkshire or Cornwall. Because both Dundonian and Glaswegian broad forms have a common basis in the Scots language, which the latter two do not possess.

 

And this spectrum of intelligible forms within and between different languages is par for the course. The Haná area of the Czech Republic is populated by people who do not use the central Czech form. Eastern Slovaks speak differently to western Slovaks. Yet the people of the Haná still use what can clearly still be identified as Czech, and the eastern Slovaks Slovak. 

 

The only difference between these cases, of course, is that in one part of the world you (and most other people) do not wish to contest the validity of languages, regardless of their internal 'sub'-divisions; whereas in the UK you have an ideological dog in the fight, and so we have this display of flip-flopping all over the place in order to treat the exact same anomalies as an insurmountable problem with Scots.

 

What I understand to be Scots is certainly a much purer and distinct form of language from the Scots English that we speak day to day.

 

And the basis for this claim is... what, exactly?

Edited March 18, 2016 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

As for lecture? Is that not your normal position? The lecturing jumped up little tweenie who thinks he knows it all?

I'll let you in go a wee secret - I've got piles that are probably older and more incisive than you are.

Oh dear. The reason why you're being trounced on this issue by yours truly - and the reason why the busted flush didn't even attempt to respond to his 'dialect'/language fail being pointed out - is because understanding the political construction of language and nationalism is really one of the fundamentals needed to conduct research in my field. Which means that I've actually consulted the credible scholarship from experts, who trounce your politically-driven but intellectually baseless arguments. Perhaps you can make up for your many years of lost time - knowing absolutely nothing but still spouting your views about the topic - by consulting the works of Hroch, Gellner, Anderson, Breuilly, A.D. Smith, and Hobsbawm in turn. Alexander Maxwell's Choosing Slovakia is also an excellent monograph on the relationship between language/dialect proponents and political nationalism.

Thanks for playing anyway.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

^^^ word salad

I asked you to be specific, and instead what was provided was this mealy mouthed set of words with no actual meaning to them whatsoever. Please provide examples of "teaching that relates to it" (Scots language) and where you believe this to be appropriate in the curriculum.

On the planet where millions of Scots speak using and entirely different set of words in Scots, then standard English in turn, according to different contexts every single day. Or unthinkingly transcribe Scots from a spoken conversation into written, standard English forms.

Oh dear. In your previous posts you bewailed that Scots isn't a proper language, but rather one "that no one can actually agree on" - post #76 on this thread. Now you've flip-flopped into claiming that there is a cast-iron 'true' Scots language, but that's also not relevant because no-one uses it. Make your mind up.

Erm yes it is. 'Broad Dundonian and Broad Glaswegian' are far more similar in terms of word usage and forms of speech than other 'broad' forms of speech from, say, Yorkshire or Cornwall. Because both Dundonian and Glaswegian broad forms have a common basis in the Scots language, which the latter two do not possess.

And this spectrum of intelligible forms within and between different languages is par for the course. The Haná area of the Czech Republic is populated by people who do not use the central Czech form. Eastern Slovaks speak differently to western Slovaks. Yet the people of the Haná still use what can clearly still be identified as Czech, and the eastern Slovaks Slovak.

The only difference between these cases, of course, is that in one part of the world you (and most other people) do not wish to contest the validity of languages, regardless of their internal 'sub'-divisions; whereas in the UK you have an ideological dog in the fight, and so we have this display of flip-flopping all over the place in order to treat the exact same anomalies as an insurmountable problem with Scots.

And the basis for this claim is... what, exactly?

Bite.

[Scary Bear]

No we don't.

Aye, we do.

[ScotlandGer]

As a student a few years ago, one of the courses I had to take as mandatory was an English Language course.  

 

One of the modules was the Scots language which I chose out of interest.

 

One lecture in particular, the lecturer conducted a good half-hour entirely in Scots.  It was really impressive and still something I mind positively.  There was something about hearing the language in a relatively formal setting which was appealing and I was able to understand / interpret relatively well.  I've been pre-disposed to moves to advance the language since then - it can only be a benefit imo.

[milhouse]

I'm all for it. Especially in early years education where early literacy could be greatly enhanced by including words and sounds that children here in their home and family environment.

Except they don't hear any of these words at home. No one talks like Rabbie Burns these days you know. We have regional slang which changes with time.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

BTW VT that was the epitome of a word salad. Amazing what you can cut and paste from Google.

It was almost Anthony C Pick-like . . .

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Except they don't hear any of these words at home. No one talks like Rabbie Burns these days you know. We have regional slang which changes with time.

A point that some people here are too dumb to understand.

[milhouse]

A point that some people here are too dumb to understand.

I'm a Scottish Nationalist, but absolutely no investment is required in "Scots language". It would be much better if we had some people in schools who could teach Spanish, Arabic ir Mandarin.

[LongTimeLurker]

Just wait til someone brings Norn back as a revived language. c***s will be fuckin' ragin'

Think some people are actually trying, although they could save themselves a lot of effort by simply adopting Faroese.

[invergowrie arab]

Except they don't hear any of these words at home. No one talks like Rabbie Burns these days you know. We have regional slang which changes with time.

No one uses Scots words or phrases in their own home?

 

I dont know where you are from but I would suggest kids in Dundee from the poorest backgrounds, those who do least well in literacy, are brought up in households and families where only Scots/Dundonian/slang whatever you want to call it is spoken.

 

Im not talking about teaching them Tam o Shanter I'm talking about recognising that in early years literacy and incorporating it into the curriculum as well as standard english.

 

I'm a Scottish Nationalist, but absolutely no investment is required in "Scots language". It would be much better if we had some people in schools who could teach Spanish, Arabic ir Mandarin.

 

Erm, we do?

 

But playing along why do you think Scots and Spanish is an either or. What do you think the return on investment of having Arabic teachers would be?

Edited March 18, 2016 by invergowrie arab

[vikingTON]

It's a well-known fact that people can only learn two languages ever; apart of course from all the people who actually live in multi-lingual families or countries of course, who can master more quite easily.

[vikingTON]

BTW VT that was the epitome of a word salad. Amazing what you can cut and paste from Google.

It was almost Anthony C Pick-like . . .

Bite.

Two failed comebacks because you can't defend your position.

Better luck next time.