Tory Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 That word isn't sectarian. It only got banned after years of Rangers fannies crying about it. Ayr sang it the last time your lot visisted and it's a fairly large stretch to call Ayr fans sectarian. It simply means Rangers fan. That word is a derogatory term for a Protestant, to suggest it doesn't fall under the sectarian bracket is just idiotic. For the record however, it was a song. It's the Hibs fans right to be able to sing that song, sadly freedom of speech is slowly and surely being taken away from us, and most of you haven't even noticed it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortar Bored Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 I've read the debate on here regarding this issue, and I'll be honest, I've been converted from thinking it's a useful piece of legislation to thinking that an amendment to the act is urgently required. Whilst VT and others are completely correct that there has been inaction by footballing authorities and legal intervention was / is required, I refuse to believe that any normal football fan has ever or would ever fall foul of this legislation. Being a dick at the football is insipid behaviour, however I'm pretty sure, most have said something that will be considered offensive by a "reasonable minded person" especially if that person making the interpretation is a bizzy. The other objection is the fact that it only includes football, so if an act appeared at say, T in the Park and got booed of stage & chants against them for being Jew/ Muslim/ English/ Proddy/ Black/ Nickelback it would be up to the police to make a trumped up charge of BOP. Which is how the law used to stand. In the case of Nickelback abuse, of course, the authorities should drag the offenders from the crowd and give them medals. I don't see how the football authorities can't clean up the game with assistance from Holyrood- oh yes I can.... Bigotry is in their best interests. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 That word is a derogatory term for a Protestant, to suggest it doesn't fall under the sectarian bracket is just idiotic. For the record however, it was a song. It's the Hibs fans right to be able to sing that song, sadly freedom of speech is slowly and surely being taken away from us, and most of you haven't even noticed it. It really isn't. Has always been used a term for a rangers fan in this part of the world until rangers fans started crying about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 I don't need to provide an example. The SFA, Rangers and Celtic forced this issue to become a Police matter. The Police requested this act. Absolutely no one forced it to become a Police matter. It does not need to be a Police matter. Just because the Police want something doesn't mean they should have it. It usually means they shouldn't. There is a whole host of reasons why Old Firm sectarianism would not be covered by breach of the peace (penalties being a major factor). This is just false. If the singing of songs would "cause alarm to ordinary people and threaten serious disturbance to the community." then it was already a crime and they could prove sectarian aggravation for the purposes of sentencing if it contained clearly sectarian language or themes. You have not provided a positive justification for Police intervention where singing a song would not "conduct severe enough to cause alarm to ordinary people and threaten serious disturbance to the community." There are issues whether the acts being described would (or should) be covered by existing hate crime legislation, which numerous other people have already argued on here and why the police do not believe that law is appropriate. You clearly don't know what a hate crime is. Hate crimes in this country are aggravations of existing crimes. If you can show a crime is motivated by "malice or ill-will towards an identifiable social group" it's a hate crime. That's piss easy to do if a BOP or assault or incitement charge is levied as a consequence of the context in which a crowd sings a sectarian song. I freely admit Scotland fans could run foul of the Act as much as a Rangers fan if they are careless or unlucky. I blame the Old Firm for that situation. The only case you have provided that was an outrage was a case that was thrown out by a judge without a conviction. That judge has made pretty clear what the act is designed to solve. It is not designed to combat offensive banter. Except you are wrong. The man in question was convicted. He was given an absolute discharge on conviction. We shouldn't have to rely-upon absolute discharge to compensate for a terrible law. This is just circular. I have said what I think, you have presented a series of arguments now. The whole libertarian crusade has now changed into "well Scotland fans support Scotland and don't like the England team" because a Rangers fan wants to excuse his team's bigotry. So you now believe supporting Scotland and not England is the equivalent of Old Firm bigotry. You can beat about the bush, but as I said before any non-Old Firm fan denying Old Firm bigotry is a problem to be sorted should be ashamed of themselves. Equating that to the Tartan Army is a real stretch that I don't think you believe. At absolutely no point have I said that supporting Scotland is like supporting the Old Firm. You're literally just making this shit up. I said that the singing of a song, which by the way is "if you hate the fucking English" not "the fucking England team", is a hateful and obscene thing to sing and falls foul of this legislation by exactly the same logic and rationale and principle as the Billy Boys does. I am categorically not saying that sectarian bigotry isn't a problem. The fact that something's a problem doesn't justify the use of the criminal law to combat it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Never having studied law, what is the difference between common law & statute? Apologies for this disaster of a post, can't quote properly on this phone.... Statutes are passed by legislatures. Common law is created out of judicial precedent. Most of Scottish criminal law is not contained in a statute. For example murder, culpable homicide, wilful fire-raising, theft, assault, reckless injury, and breach of the peace, are all crimes not because a Parliament said they were crimes, but because for centuries the Courts applied legal principles to situations to develop precedent, then refined them. They became legal rules essentially through prolonged and consistent conduct. Common law can be amended at any time by statute, and it cannot override the content of a statute. So judges can only develop the common law where Parliament has not already expressed a view in legislation of its own. The most obvious examples of the common-law being overtaken by statutory criminal law I can think of are in sexual offences and in road traffic laws. In England most (if not all) of the criminal law is codified in statute. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Hard cases make bad law. There isn't an easy answer to the sectarian problem. If there is it isn't contained within this statute. I'm all for hammering sectarian bigots or people singing racist or homophobic songs in public but it can be done by way of an aggravated BOTP charge. Whilst causing offence shouldn't be a criminal act I'm quite confident that these actions would cause someone fear or alarm, particularly if they are of a class of person about whom those chants are directed. Why that hasn't been done is neither here nor there,it's a separate issue that this legislation doesn't address. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tory Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 It really isn't. Has always been used a term for a rangers fan in this part of the world until rangers fans started crying about it. So why do Celtic fans call (just off the top of my head) KIlmarnock, Hearts, Airdrie, Dundee fans ****? Clubs with a history of having a Protestant support. We all know why. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williemillersmoustache Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 It really isn't. Has always been used a term for a rangers fan in this part of the world until rangers fans started crying about it. TheTheRangers don't like it therefore it's sectarian. I am looking forward to the conclusive evidence of a bit of abbreviated graffiti on a wall in the Republic of Ireland (North) conclusively proving Tory's case* *that he is an absolute throbber So why do Celtic fans call (just off the top of my head) KIlmarnock, Hearts, Airdrie, Dundee fans ****? Clubs with a history of having a Protestant support. We all know why. They don't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tory Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 TheTheRangers don't like it therefore it's sectarian. I am looking forward to the conclusive evidence of a bit of abbreviated graffiti on a wall in the Republic of Ireland (North) conclusively proving Tory's case* *that he is an absolute throbber They don't. They do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 (edited) So why do Celtic fans call (just off the top of my head) KIlmarnock, Hearts, Airdrie, Dundee fans ****? Clubs with a history of having a Protestant support. We all know why.Do they ? I'm sure they call the likes of Killy, Airdrie, Hearts, **** without bus tickets. Rangers fans without bus tickets. Why do protestants use that word to describe rangers fans if it is derogatory towards protestants ? Edited May 18, 2016 by AUFC90 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 I refuse to believe that any normal football fan has ever or would ever fall foul of this legislation. How exactly doesn't a Partick Thistle fan singing "f**k your Pope and f**k your Queen" being prosecuted under this legislation not meet that criteria? No jokes about going to Firhill being mutually exclusive with being a football fan please. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williemillersmoustache Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 They do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tory Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Do they ? I'm sure they call the likes of Killy, Airdrie, Hearts, **** without bus tickets. Rangers fans without bus tickets. Why do protestants use that word to describe rangers fans of it is derogatory towards protestants ? What Protestant labels themselves as "****"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 What Protestant labels themselves as "****"? I didn't say they did. I said plenty of protestants use that word to describe rangers fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dipped Flake Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 That word is a derogatory term for a Protestant, to suggest it doesn't fall under the sectarian bracket is just idiotic. For the record however, it was a song. It's the Hibs fans right to be able to sing that song, sadly freedom of speech is slowly and surely being taken away from us, and most of you haven't even noticed it. absolute bollocks, it means a rangers fan, everybody knows that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dipped Flake Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 So why do Celtic fans call (just off the top of my head) KIlmarnock, Hearts, Airdrie, Dundee fans ****? Clubs with a history of having a Protestant support. We all know why. yes we do all know why, because they are calling them **** without the bus fare, or mini-rangers fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tory Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 absolute bollocks, it means a rangers fan, everybody knows that. Where are the Rangers fans when you're getting told to go home ya *** at Tynecastle twice a season? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dipped Flake Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 What Protestant labels themselves as "****"? rangers fans are **** end of story. Actually end of my replies to you, just another brain dead bigot from a wee made-up country 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tory Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 yes we do all know why, because they are calling them **** without the bus fare, or mini-rangers fans. Would that be because they are Protestant leaning supports...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 absolute bollocks, it means a rangers fan, everybody knows that. No we don't - but then it's almost impossible to agree with what's sectarian and what isn't. Not even P&B can agree on the simple issue of acceptable and criminal when it comes to our song book. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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