Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Desp]

11 minutes ago, Swello said:

I'm ambivalent about Robinson at the moment - but I think the idea of him being imminently sacked has become an orthodoxy without much to support it. I'll be the first to admit that I'm wrong but unless we have a real meltdown during the upcoming tough run of fixtures, I reckon he'll get the January Window to try to fix it.

I heard on Saturday from "a source" that Robinson offered his resignation after the Livingston game and it was rejected by the board.

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, Swello said:

Firstly - I don't think we've ever been particularly trigger happy with managers over the years - far from it in fact - and just because of assumptions on Steelmen and here that Robinson is in last chance saloon doesn't make it true. In fact, there is no evidence at all that the board are thinking of doing anything. Usually when our managers get the sack, things are in a far worse state than they are currently - look how far it got under McGhee before we acted. 

We are in 10th, we have been really disappointing and as things stand, we will be in the fight for relegation this year - but I'll go out on a limb and say that at this point, I don't think Robinson is anywhere near the sack. Much as we are (favourably) judged in the way that we treat players (which makes it easier to bring new players in), we will also be judged in how we treat our managers. If we empty someone in October who had - by our standards - a very successful season a couple of months previously, would that make us more or less attractive to potential candidates? It's clear from the shortlist last time that we are not a particularly attractive job and if we "prematurely" empty someone with the 10th biggest budget in the league for being in er, 10th place in the league - it will only make things worse IMO.

I'm ambivalent about Robinson at the moment - but I think the idea of him being imminently sacked has become an orthodoxy without much to support it. I'll be the first to admit that I'm wrong but unless we have a real meltdown during the upcoming tough run of fixtures, I reckon he'll get the January Window to try to fix it.

I suppose the difference with that McGhee season was that 9 games in we were sitting on 9 points we'd won 2 drawn 3 and lost 4. We were also sitting 6th (about to drop down to 11th after the next game, granted).  No matter how you slice it 1 win from 9 isn't a good look. I think any prospective manager would acknowledge that, in fact I'd think Robinson would acknowledge that.

The seasons where we did act relatively early: 15/16 with Baraclough and 14/15 with McCall we were in a similar sort of position as we are now. 11th after 9 games under McCall (2 wins and a draw 6 losses - resigned after 12 games W 2 D 1 L 9) and 9th when Baraclough was binned (2 wins 1 draw and 5 losses) with the tin lid being put on things with the ignominious cup exit to Morton having scraped by East Fife the round before.

I kind of feel that where we are now is much closer to the McCall and Baraclough seasons. The core of the squad that had us comfortably mid-table last season is there but for whatever reason it's just not happening. Which is a shame.

He wasn't everyone's cup of tea but whilst it was largely brought about by 2 specific runs of form McGhee took Baraclough's squad and got a top 6 spot. IIRC his only January signing was Morgaro Gomis. Sometimes a bit of fresh perspective can be a good thing. The fact that tactically Robinson simply seems to be on a rinse and repeat cycle without much success is clearly increasingly problematic. Much like the Baraclough season our problem is that we're not really scoring goals. We were F 5 A 10 in the league by the time the bold Bara was emptied.

Also, I suppose from a selfish POV Robinson's CV with us still stands up; kept a team in freefall safe, 2 cup finals, 7th place finish, a club record number of clean sheets plus the guts of £2m income via player trading on his watch. The longer he seems stuck in this rut the more that lustre fades.

Edit to add: absolutely none of the above is presented in a #RobinsonOut tone.

Edited October 22, 2018 by capt_oats

[MJC]

2 hours ago, Desp said:

I heard on Saturday from "a source" that Robinson offered his resignation after the Livingston game and it was rejected by the board.

It wouldn't surprise me to be honest. On Saturday after the game in his interview he looked crestfallen and just scunnered with the whole thing, even as he churned out his usual soundbites. As I said earlier, it appears that he won't/can't change the way he sets the team up and the players themselves seem to be lacking in confidence in general, so there could well be something in that.

[well fan for life]

Some caper this story of the match stuff, eh.

[capt_oats]

3 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

Some caper this story of the match stuff, eh.

They're so invested now they can't stop.

[Desp]

8 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

Some caper this story of the match stuff, eh.

"Missed chances" made me laugh. 

There was more than one? 

[well fan for life]

Cannot wait for Lewis Irons to go for a coffee with someone who'll say we're class in training. I really do appreciate the social media guys' effort, but there comes a point where it almost feels like they're taking us for mugs.

[Al B]

I think what they don't necessarily realise (as it's very different when you're looking from the inside), is that a great many things only work when you are doing well. If you keep doing them when you aren't it just come across as daft.

The exact same media content that instils a "YASSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!" when you are doing well, will only instil a "Did ye, aye?" when you aren't. They need to adapt it accordingly.

[Casagolda]

21 hours ago, capt_oats said:

I suppose the difference with that McGhee season was that 9 games in we were sitting on 9 points we'd won 2 drawn 3 and lost 4. We were also sitting 6th (about to drop down to 11th after the next game, granted).  No matter how you slice it 1 win from 9 isn't a good look. I think any prospective manager would acknowledge that, in fact I'd think Robinson would acknowledge that.

I may be wrong but I’m also sure under McGhee we won in Dingwall on deadline day and went in to February in the top 6!?

Whilst that season was shite, we were in a pack of 6 or 7 other poor teams who were separated by about 6 points for the most part. Right now we’re already 6 points of 8th.

Whilst I get where @Swello is coming from, I don’t think the club can/will let things run until January. They can’t risk us becoming detached from the pack, if either of Dundee or St Mirren start to show signs of life we’re in deep trouble.

As such, that’s why I think these next 2 games are make or break for Robinson- if he lets those 2 teams climb above us then I think he will be on his way.

[well fan for life]

10 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

I may be wrong but I’m also sure under McGhee we won in Dingwall on deadline day and went in to February in the top 6!?

Whilst that season was shite, we were in a pack of 6 or 7 other poor teams who were separated by about 6 points for the most part. Right now we’re already 6 points of 8th.

Whilst I get where @Swello is coming from, I don’t think the club can/will let things run until January. They can’t risk us becoming detached from the pack, if either of Dundee or St Mirren start to show signs of life we’re in deep trouble.

As such, that’s why I think these next 2 games are make or break for Robinson- if he lets those 2 teams climb above us then I think he will be on his way.

Without a hint of the "Robinson out" murmur that's going around, this is my take as well. It's a minimum of 4 points, but really should be 6 from these next two games that would see him alright for now. 

I also really, really, REALLY want us to stop persisting with this 3-5-fucking-2. As soon as the line ups came out on Saturday I already knew exactly what was coming. 

[capt_oats]

20 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

I may be wrong but I’m also sure under McGhee we won in Dingwall on deadline day and went in to February in the top 6!?

Whilst that season was shite, we were in a pack of 6 or 7 other poor teams who were separated by about 6 points for the most part. Right now we’re already 6 points of 8th.

Whilst I get where @Swello is coming from, I don’t think the club can/will let things run until January. They can’t risk us becoming detached from the pack, if either of Dundee or St Mirren start to show signs of life we’re in deep trouble.

As such, that’s why I think these next 2 games are make or break for Robinson- if he lets those 2 teams climb above us then I think he will be on his way.

Yep.

This was the table after deadline day.

Our run after that result in Dingwall was:

04/02/17 - Motherwell 0 - 3 Hearts
15/02/17 - Aberdeen 7 - 2 Motherwell
18/02/17 - Celtic 2 - 0 Motherwell
25/02/17 - Motherwell 1 - 5 Dundee

and with that....McGhee was gone.

Edited October 23, 2018 by capt_oats

[well fan for life]

4 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Yep.

This was the table after deadline day.

Our run after that result in Dingwall was:

04/02/17 - Motherwell 0 - 3 Hearts
15/02/17 - Aberdeen 7 - 2 Motherwell
18/02/17 - Celtic 2 - 0 Motherwell
25/02/17 - Motherwell 1 - 5 Dundee

and with that....McGhee was gone.

I would just like to bring this interview back up.

Particularly the line: "We were still cobbling together a few results. Some of our performances prior to that Dundee game (McGhee's last, which they lost 5-1 at home) had been very good."

 

[Swello]

2 hours ago, Al B said:

I think what they don't necessarily realise (as it's very different when you're looking from the inside), is that a great many things only work when you are doing well. If you keep doing them when you aren't it just come across as daft.

The exact same media content that instils a "YASSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!" when you are doing well, will only instil a "Did ye, aye?" when you aren't. They need to adapt it accordingly.

I think they should do a training montage (using a drone) showing everyone making mistakes and berating each other - maybe spliced with some GoPro footage of a fight. With the Laurel and Hardy theme tune as soundtrack.

Spoiler

Feel a bit sorry for the media boys TBH.

 

[well fan for life]

1 minute ago, Swello said:

I think they should do a training montage (using a drone) showing everyone making mistakes and berating each other - maybe spliced with some GoPro footage of a fight. With the Laurel and Hardy theme tune as soundtrack.

  Reveal hidden contents

Feel a bit sorry for the media boys TBH.

 

A couple of alright bits of play following by us conceding a shit goal set to the Curb Your Enthusiasm soundtrack is my feelings.

I agree though. They're not exactly having the easiest job. 

[capt_oats]

On @well fan for life's point about the 3-5-fucking 2 I found myself on a deep dive of the MFC YouTube archives for the 15/16 season last night (I could have gone to see David Byrne but no...I was sitting watching old highlights from a season with Louis Laing and Kieran Kennedy in our squad).

Anyway, point is Baraclough started off that season with an approach that echoed what worked in the play-off against Rangers but for whatever reasons it didn't really work out.

In the run up to his sacking his league results were:

01/08/15 - ICT 0 - 1 Motherwell (big up Wes Fletcher lol)
08/08/15 - Motherwell 0 - 2 Dundee United
12/08/15 - Hearts 2 - 0 Motherwell
15/08/15 - Motherwell 1 - 2 Aberdeen
22/08/15 - St Johnstone 2 - 1 Motherwell
29/08/15 - Motherwell 1 - 0 Kilmarnock
12/09/15 - Motherwell 1 - 1 Ross County
19/09/15 - Hamilton Academical 1 - 0 Motherwell

...and with that Baraclough was gone.

McGhee came in and apart from patter like trying to make Louis Laing a defensive midfielder and playing Stevie Hammell as a right back as we get pumped 6-0 at Tyncastle overall he took Baraclough's squad and adapted them, made some changes to shape and approach and we picked up.

For avoidance of doubt this isn't me pining for a return of McGhee but it's notable the difference that a change in shape or perspective can make to a group of players.

His intitial results were:

17/10/15 - Motherwell 0 - 1 Celtic
24/10/15 - Aberdeen 1 - 1 Motherwell
31/10/15 - Kilmarnock 0 - 1 Motherwell
07/11/15 - Motherwell 1 - 3 ICT
21/11/15 - Ross County 3 - 0 Motherwell
28/11/15 - Motherwell 2 - 2 Hearts
12/12/15 - Motherwell 3 - 1 Dundee
19/12/15 - Celtic 1 - 2 Motherwell
30/12/15 - Motherwell 2 - 0 St Johnstone
02/01/16 - Motherwell 3 - 3 Hamilton Academical

Same players that were by and large struggling under Baraclough picked up 15 points under McGhee in his first 10 games: P 10 W 4 D 3 L 3.

By the time we hit that 2nd run of form of the season we had a front 3 of Johnson, Moult and McDonald (all of whom were at the club at the start of the season).

This isn't even a throwback to the halcyon days of McCall's runners up with Higdon pinging them in and yes, it's against a United side who were subsequently relegated but fucking hell...Cadden looks like a different player.

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by capt_oats

[Swello]

7 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

By the time we hit that 2nd run of form of the season we had a front 3 of Johnson, Moult and McDonald.

There is a sentence that shows the biggest decline in the team and - again - underlines the folly of not being able to sign a forward of real quality in the summer.

[Al B]

Just to echo the previous. yeah I feel sorry for the media guys as well...they are being left with trying to dress up a dismal situation all-round, and make it seem exciting and interesting. Timing is a big part of what works though...the Hartley signing video is one of the best (if not the best) pieces of PR work the club have ever done, absolutely textbook on how to create a buzz. If the exact same video was done now though, it would just annoy almost everyone.

That's the PR industry though, the right thing at the right time. Get either of those wrong and it doesn't work.

[well fan for life]

13 minutes ago, Swello said:

There is a sentence that shows the biggest decline in the team and - again - underlines the folly of not being able to sign a forward of real quality in the summer.

While nonsense defending is killing us at times, this is what is brutal. We have an entire squad with nobody who gives any sort of spark. Moult was, ultimately, a complete anomaly out of the conference leagues. It's unlikely we'll find a second one of those jobbing around somewhere. But when we had him we had someone who could score from basically nothing. McDonald was a moaning git but he was good at holding up play and linking midfield and attack. Marvin Johnson on his day was outstanding. Pace, power and, latterly, finishing. Christ even an Ainsworth, while being wildly inconsistent, at least could produce a ridiculous 35 yard strike out of nothing.

Admittedly this next part is riddled with bias as I absolutely adore the man and worship the ground he walks on, but even Ciftci had a knack of pulling us up the park last season. He could trap a ball like a bag of cement and seemed almost impossible to nudge off the ball when he had it under control. 

This season we've got Main who has zero confidence, Bowman takes a first touch like a brick wall, Sammon is Sammon and Johnson fell away after a couple of goals. Coupled with Cadden playing about 50 yards further back than when he was at his best, Tait playing out of position and Elliot Frear impersonating a footballer there's nobody providing any decent crosses at this point. Indeed the first time we have shown anything like creativity is from a 19 year old from the reserves.

It seems like we recruited with a quantity over quality approach which is proving to be a disaster. This "improving 12-18" stuff has been an abject failure as we've just brought in a load of bench warming jobbers instead of anyone who looks like they might force their way into the first team. 

[Desp]

17 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

While nonsense defending is killing us at times, this is what is brutal. We have an entire squad with nobody who gives any sort of spark. Moult was, ultimately, a complete anomaly out of the conference leagues. It's unlikely we'll find a second one of those jobbing around somewhere. But when we had him we had someone who could score from basically nothing. McDonald was a moaning git but he was good at holding up play and linking midfield and attack. Marvin Johnson on his day was outstanding. Pace, power and, latterly, finishing. Christ even an Ainsworth, while being wildly inconsistent, at least could produce a ridiculous 35 yard strike out of nothing.

Admittedly this next part is riddled with bias as I absolutely adore the man and worship the ground he walks on, but even Ciftci had a knack of pulling us up the park last season. He could trap a ball like a bag of cement and seemed almost impossible to nudge off the ball when he had it under control. 

This season we've got Main who has zero confidence, Bowman takes a first touch like a brick wall, Sammon is Sammon and Johnson fell away after a couple of goals. Coupled with Cadden playing about 50 yards further back than when he was at his best, Tait playing out of position and Elliot Frear impersonating a footballer there's nobody providing any decent crosses at this point. Indeed the first time we have shown anything like creativity is from a 19 year old from the reserves.

It seems like we recruited with a quantity over quality approach which is proving to be a disaster. This "improving 12-18" stuff has been an abject failure as we've just brought in a load of bench warming jobbers instead of anyone who looks like they might force their way into the first team. 

Any chance of sticking that in a letter to Mr S Robinson, Fir Park Stadium, Motherwell?

[Swello]

All the guys mentioned - Moult, McDonald, Ainsworth, Ciftci & Johnson had the arrogance needed to try stuff that was out of the ordinary and add a bit of entertainment - and these are the types of players I've always valued above the others - Cooper and Coyne are my favourite ever players for precisely that reason. The downside is that only the very best of that type of player is at all consistent of course - but to me, it is essential to have players like that and you deal with it when they are aff it by having another inconsistent genius to send on after an hour

We are in a position where we've got a bunch of very hard working but ultimately quite limited players (although I liked my first proper look at Turnball on Saturday) and the blend simply has to be changed in January regardless of manager. No team we play are looking at us and worrying about what they are having to defend against and as much as the workrate and (assuming it ever returns) organisation gets you so far, you need someone that makes a defender shite themselves. It's the extreme example - but when other teams saw Higdon, Ojamma, Murphy and Humphrey lining up against them, they were anything but comfortable....