Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[ChrisMFCfan1886]

Re-sign Bowman in January, get Craig Brown back as manager and wait for the inevitable SPFL intervention when we're remotely in danger as a club. Let's get this ship shored up. 

[ropy]

1 hour ago, well fan for life said:

Absolutely shite at fitba. But the guy ran himself into the ground whenever he played, got us into a cup final and worked the entire Rangers staff & support into an absolute shoot. 

An all round good guy imo. 

Loved to run to a corner flag but had his moments

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

You can come up with loads of complicated theories about how we are suffering the way that we are, but I think it’s as simple as, we’re not good enough at defending, we don’t create or take enough chances and we have a squad absolutely riddled with bang-average players.

I think today maybe swayed me round from the “we’re shite but we still won’t get sucked into a relegation battle” line of thought. In other seasons where I’ve felt that, we had for example, Moult’s goals in 16/17 and Turnbull’s emergence and goals in 18/19, but I really can’t see where that’s coming from just now. 

But for our six default points, we would only be one point ahead of Accies and two ahead of Ross County, albeit with games in hand. That is as much of a concern as the fact that our top league goalscorer after 15 games is Mark O’Hara on 3 (2 penalties).

I’ll be happy when Carson, Carroll and Donnelly are back, but I think it’ll take more than those three to save our season.

[thisGRAEME]

51 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

That is as much of a concern as the fact that our top league goalscorer after 15 games is Mark O’Hara on 3 (2 penalties)..

You seem to have forgotten about Neil Doncaster's consecutive hat-tricks, Joe.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Just now, thisGRAEME said:

You seem to have forgotten about Neil Doncaster's consecutive hat-tricks, Joe.

I said 15, rather than 17, to protect myself from such responses, but that clearly didn’t work

[thisGRAEME]

3 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I said 15, rather than 17, to protect myself from such responses, but that clearly didn’t work

You can't deny the big man's form. 2 games, 6 goals, surprised to see him dropped.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

He's probably in a two horse race with Jock Brown for PotY right now

Edited December 13, 2020 by YassinMoutaouakil

[capt_oats]

Not to post in a happy clapping, THIS IS FINE style - a loss is a loss and all that but taking out the OF games of our 6 domestic losses 5 have been by a 1 goal margin (4 1-0s and a 2-1). I mean, even the Hibs game was 1-0 until the 88th minute.

I broadly agree with @crazylegsjoe_mfc here:

2 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

You can come up with loads of complicated theories about how we are suffering the way that we are, but I think it’s as simple as, we’re not good enough at defending, we don’t create or take enough chances and we have a squad absolutely riddled with bang-average players.

Thinking back to last season (given a fair percentage of that team are still here) I suppose that's the difference - at McDiarmid Park Gillespie saves that penalty when we're 1-0 up etc. In 7 of our opening 8 league games we scored first and only lost 2 of them (Celtic & County). Shooting ourselves in the foot to the extent we have isn't really helping much.

For all I agree with the point that our squad is filled with bang average players it shouldn't take away from the fact that we've actually put in some competent to actually quite good performances with those players - granted Turnbull ran the show at Easter Road and we lucked out with McKenna getting sold and Joe Lewis chucking a couple in at Pittodrie but Hibs, Aberdeen, County and Livi were games that we actually controlled (IMO).

I suppose it's entirely possible that opposition sides are confident enough that 1 goal seems to be enough against us.

[welldaft]

I would say we were worse in the home games to Dundee United and Hamilton than we were v Hibs and St Mirren. 

What is damning however is that stat that in the 4 x 1-0 defeats we had nearly 70 shots at goal. I mean even I am struggling to comprehend that. Not least because the opposition have had a fraction of that and managed to conjure up 4 goals. We are either incredibly unlucky or shit or probably a bit of both. 

St Mirren were OK yesterday but the luck to have the goal come from a keepers save that goes straight to their player and only player around the box when in actuality it could have gone anywhere. Then we have several shots from distance in the 2nd half and not once does it fall kindly for a tap in or even a follow up shot. 

Not making excuses as we are simply not good enough. That is ultimately what these performance and results are showing. 

I don’t know how Robinson can change this without personnel changes. I mean to say that he cannot bollock the players is interesting. They must know themselves they need to do more in games. But I get distinct vibes that they don’t seem to care. I may be wrong but as much as that was an OK performance yesterday I did not get the impression they were or are busting a gut to get back to winning ways. Gallacher is a good player no doubt but I never see him bawling at players like a Hartley would. We just seem to accept it.

I don’t know where we go from here. Apart from a rogering at Ibrox next weekend. 

You wonder if Robinson can turn it around. Every time he has found himself in this position before he has managed to do just that. At some point I suspect he will not be able to do so again. Hope I am wrong.....

Edited December 13, 2020 by welldaft

[capt_oats]

Looking back at Robinson's previous sides he's generally had a spread of goals through the team rather than hanging our hat on one Higdon or Sutton type. That's totally fine as long as we've got players chipping in on a regular enough basis, even when we had Moult doing his thing under McGhee we had McDonald and/or Bowman chipping in.

This season however beside having a collection of forwards who don't seem to necessarily be prolific, we've seen a massive drop off in Chris Long (17 appearances 2 goals). Donnelly's out until the new year, Polworth may be many (very good) things but a goalscorer he is not, Campbell's goals have dried up a bit, Maguire's finding his feet as a first team player and credit where it's due O'Hara can take a penalty.

Here are the top scorers for each of Robinson's 4 seasons to date.

17/18 (7th)

• Moult (8 league) (14 all comps)
• Bowman (7 league) (10 all comps)
• Tanner (6 league) (9 all comps)
• Main (5 league) (7 all comps)

18/19 (8th)

• Turnbull (15 league) (15 all comps)
• Johnson (6 league) (8 all comps)
• Hastie (6 league) (7 all comps)
• Main (3 league) (6 all comps)

19/20 (3rd*)

• Donnelly (7 league) (11 all comps)
• Long (7 league) (11 all comps)
• Campbell (5 league) (6 all comps)
• Scott (3 league) (6 all comps)
• Cole (4 league) (4 all comps)

20/21 (currently 5th)

• Awarded goals (6 league) (6 all comps)
• Watt (2 league) (5 all comps)
• Lang (2 league) (4 all comps)
• O'Hara (3 league) (3 all comps)
• Campbell (2 league) (2 all comps)
• Long (1 league) (2 all comps)

Edited December 13, 2020 by capt_oats

[Ron Aldo]

1 hour ago, welldaft said:

What is damning however is that stat that in the 4 x 1-0 defeats we had nearly 70 shots at goal. I mean even I am struggling to comprehend that. Not least because the opposition have had a fraction of that and managed to conjure up 4 goals. We are either incredibly unlucky or shit or probably a bit of both.

While some results this season have been less than ideal, this is a key point for me.  Whenever we're going through a poor spell I always think back to the 14/15 season where we ended up in the playoffs - there were points in that season where we could easily go 4 or 5 games without creating so much as a chance. I tend to think that as long as we're creating chances our luck will turn eventually. However, the players have to make some of their own luck and there's no getting away from the fact that some of their performances have been nowhere near good enough. 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Watching our “shots” yesterday scunnered me. They’re all at passback strength, no one seems to put their foot through the ball and make the keeper work.

I wouldn’t take the number of shots on target we’ve had this season of an indicator that we should have scored a lot more goals...you’d have to rack your brains to think of that many good saves that keepers have had against us.

A good number of our shots on target are someone weakly hitting a ball goalwards when they are closed down and don’t have any other options.

[ZX1886]

3 hours ago, Ron Aldo said:

While some results this season have been less than ideal, this is a key point for me.  Whenever we're going through a poor spell I always think back to the 14/15 season where we ended up in the playoffs - there were points in that season where we could easily go 4 or 5 games without creating so much as a chance. I tend to think that as long as we're creating chances our luck will turn eventually. However, the players have to make some of their own luck and there's no getting away from the fact that some of their performances have been nowhere near good enough. 

I particularly remember a game from that season, Dundee beat us 1-0 at Fir Park in what was an absolutely dreadful match to watch. The similarity between then and now is the lack of creativity going forward.

People can talk all they want about our defence but it is going forward that worries me the most. We are so slow and as @crazylegsjoe_mfc said, most of our shots are very weak and are absolutely no trouble for the goalkeeper.

I don’t think we’re in relegation trouble (just yet) but it looks like a 8th or 9th finish and then a big rebuild in the summer.

Edited December 13, 2020 by ZX1886

[capt_oats]

I think it kind of depends on what Robinson's fix is going forward and whether he blows it all up to start again. Again.

As I said, he was highlighting that our "wide players aren't playing well" for the 2nd or 3rd time this season.

I mean, we started out the season with the 433 changed it because it wasn't working, switched it back and after a brief renaissance we're back to where we were at the start of the season and seeing the same failings.

It's not a hill for me but it feels like we're shoehorning players into areas where we're not getting the best out of them:

• O'Hara's offered more as a centre back than he has as a holding mid.
• Bev's best games for us have been as part of a back 3. We've reverted to using him as part of a CB pairing
• Left back is what it is. Carroll's 2 months behind in his rehab because of the 'rona so we're muddling our way through with least worst attempts at finding someone to play there.
• Our collection of forwards probably fit better as second strikers we're playing one through the middle and two wide and by Robinson's own admission "our wide players aren't playing well".

I'm not going to pretend I'm familiar enough with Callum Lang's career history to know what position he was playing in the lower leagues but it's notable that he had a double figures season with Oldham 18/19 - 16 in 50 games and to a lesser extent 10 in 31 with Morcambe in 17/18.

Who knows, maybe we might get a bit more joy from him playing him more centrally off someone like Watt or Cole.

Edited December 13, 2020 by capt_oats

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I know McGinley hardly covered himself in glory for Hibs’ 2nd and 3rd goals last week, but has he been THAT bad at left back to be dropped for Grimmy yesterday?

50 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

• Left back is what it is. Carroll's 2 months behind in his rehab because of the 'rona so we're muddling our way through with least worst attempts at finding someone to play there.

Also, Robbo’s narrative about Lamie being “an out-and-out centre back” differs somewhat from his spiel when we signed him.

“I believe he will add to our defence and can play in numerous positions, including centre back and left back.

“He gives us balance to the left side and has very good Premiership experience. He’s also a good age, with great enthusiasm to keep improving, which impressed me.”

Edited December 13, 2020 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[RandomGuy.]

Your simple fix to score more goals is to drop Watt. I know he scored against us in the cup, but he genuinely seems cursed in the league and is one of the worst in the league for missing chances.

Play Long or Cole central, with Lang coming in off the left. McGinley as LB as you need width to create space for Lang. Right wing is your issue i guess, Seedorf or Hastie is some choice. You'll likely recall Semple in January and he'll become your next superstar on that wing.

[capt_oats]

I wondered whether there's an injury concern with McGinley tbh. He was on the bench for the St Johnstone game as well, given his groin issue at the start of the season maybe they're conscious of load.

The Lamie Narrative I'm just taking as Robinson damage limitationing the fact he's stuck with an absolute dugmeat player who's not even fit for purpose as the cover role we signed him for.

Thinking a bit more about the (lack of) output from the forwards, by my count these are the splits based on formation. Ignoring performance and whether we were actually good to watch or not it's interesting to see which games we got goals out our forwards.

433:
Ross County 1-0 (L)
Dundee United 0-1 (L)
Livingston 2-2 (X) - Turnbull, Campbell
Hibs 0-0 (X)
Accies 0-1 (L)
Ross County 4-0 (W) - Watt, O'Hara (p), Lang, Cole
Livingston 0-2 (W) - Lang, Watt
Celtic 1-4 (L) - Gallagher
St Johnstone 1-1 (X) - O'Hara
St Johnstone 1-2 (L) - Watt
Hibs 0-3 (L)
St Mirren 0-1 (L)

Total = 11 goals / 12 games - 6 goals from forwards

352:
Glentoran 5-1 (W) - Lang, O'Donnell, Polworth, Watt, Long
Celtic 3-0 (L)
St Johnstone 1-0 (W) - Campbell
Coleraine 2-2 (X) - Watt, Lang
Aberdeen 0-3 (W) - O'Hara (p), Long, Mugabi
Hapoel Be'er Sheva 3-0 (L)
Rangers 1-5 (L) - Edmundson (o.g)

Total - 12 goals / 7 games - 6 goals from forwards

I mean, the Glentoran and Coleraine results probably skew things a bit although equally we've failed to score in games against County, Accies and St Mirren so...

Edited December 13, 2020 by capt_oats

[YassinMoutaouakil]

To be honest as negative as I was yesterday I don't think we're a million miles away. Our squad is horrendously unbalanced but it's not totally devoid of quality.  Carroll, Donnelly and Carson coming back into the fold as well as a couple of smart signings- ideally a winger and a striker*- and we might be able to rejig the current setup to suit our personnel a bit better.

 

*TWO SEPARATE PEOPLE

[capt_oats]

54 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Your simple fix to score more goals is to drop Watt. I know he scored against us in the cup, but he genuinely seems cursed in the league and is one of the worst in the league for missing chances.

Play Long or Cole central, with Lang coming in off the left. McGinley as LB as you need width to create space for Lang. Right wing is your issue i guess, Seedorf or Hastie is some choice. You'll likely recall Semple in January and he'll become your next superstar on that wing.

I really want Semple to be good but it's a big ask to be pinning our hopes on a boy who can't get a start for Cove at the moment. It's not like he's been having the sort of season Hastie had at Alloa.

Also, he's been trained up as an #8 rather than as a wide forward.

22 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

To be honest as negative as I was yesterday I don't think we're a million miles away. Our squad is horrendously unbalanced but it's not totally devoid of quality.  Carroll, Donnelly and Carson coming back into the fold as well as a couple of smart signings- ideally a winger and a striker*- and we might be able to rejig the current setup to suit our personnel a bit better.

*TWO SEPARATE PEOPLE

Aye, when you think about it: Carson and Donnelly...that's two actual internationals we're short while Carroll was one of the more consistent left backs in the league.

I'm quite curious to see what happens with Archer seeing as the story seems to be that Carson's back training with the physio. I know he's not kept a clean sheet but he feels like a bit more of a reassuring option to have around than the Pieman - especially if Morrison's staying out on loan and Connelly is currently injured.

Zero doubt we need a couple of bodies but It'll be interesting to see who Robinson is able to cut loose from the fringes of the squad tbh.

Based on who's contracted beyond January (assuming none of our assets leave) we're looking at:

Carson
Grimshaw O'Hara Gallagher Carroll
Campbell Donnelly Polworth
Lang Watt Cole

or

Carson
O'Hara Gallagher McGinley
Grimshaw Campbell Donnelly Polworth Carroll
Lang Watt

Either way that leaves guys like Mugabi, Lamie, Seedorf, Hastie, Long, White kicking their heels.

Edited December 13, 2020 by capt_oats

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, capt_oats said:

I really want Semple to be good but it's a big ask to be pinning our hopes on a boy who can't get a start for Cove at the moment. It's not like he's been having the sort of season Hastie had at Alloa.

Wasnt being entiry serious tbh.