Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[beesher]

We can sign all the players we want but Alexanderball is a fucking grim watch. I could put up with it last season as survival was a priority but only so much I can take this year especially when we aren’t getting positive results.

Absolutely this. The main reason I watch Motherwell is to be entertained (yes really) and recently there has been absolutely 0 to get excited about with this team. Going a goal up and shutting up shop has no appeal to me at all.

Hopefully that was due to needing to avoid relegation, and to be fair to the team they did look decent against Hibs, but the jury is still out on GA for sure.

[rowsdower]

I guess you can't argue with results, but in a lot of those games where we "shut up shop", we really didn't. We had Kelly making great saves, and a fair amount of luck too. We can be the absolute best at defending set pieces and crosses (we aren't), but if you let teams fire in crosses at will and have 17 corners, the odds aren't going to be in your favour.

This has been the case since GA came in, so it is definitely a tactic. Are there other teams that do this? What is the theoretical advantage of doing this?

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I agree about the style. I had hoped last season it was a case of him making the best of the card he had been dealt and it wasn’t a long term thing, but the jury now remains out on that.

I know it’s hardly the most modern formation, but given it seems like we are playing with one midfielder less anyway and the wingers aren’t doing enough to support the central striker, I wonder if playing 4-4-2 with Watt or Shields partnering Van Veen might be worth a try.

[capt_oats]

3 hours ago, rowsdower said:

I guess you can't argue with results, but in a lot of those games where we "shut up shop", we really didn't. We had Kelly making great saves, and a fair amount of luck too. We can be the absolute best at defending set pieces and crosses (we aren't), but if you let teams fire in crosses at will and have 17 corners, the odds aren't going to be in your favour.

This has been the case since GA came in, so it is definitely a tactic. Are there other teams that do this? What is the theoretical advantage of doing this?

I suppose it depends what your POV is and whether you give credit for defenders and goalkeeper simply doing their job in keeping a clean sheet or if you decide to spin it as being lucky or we got out of jail because Kelly makes a wondersave or whatever (I'm not saying you're doing either btw).

The 1-0 win against Killie when he was not long in the door sticks in the mind as being one of the better examples of Mugabi and Lamie just dealing with everything that came into the box and Kelly being a good goalkeeper.

Ultimately Alexander managed more clean sheets (7) in 21 games as Robinson managed (6) in 23 last season (or 6 in 18 vs 6 in 19 if we're only counting the league). The obvious difference was that we seemed to score more goals and that made the difference in games where fine margins mattered because he won more games.

I don't think it's any secret that Alexander changed his tactics last season either.

Up until the Accies/St Johnstone games at FP we were doing the thing we're doing at the moment with the split centre backs and trying to play from the back and all that malarky. We won 3 from 7 and drew 2. The losses were when Polworth had his shitfit at Pittodrie and the 2-1 at Parkhead. 

It seemed to be the 4-1 against Killie at RP which was the point we were properly spooked and chucked any pretence of style out the window. Ironically we only lost one of the next 8 (if you call the Hibs cup game a draw, which I do).

As others have said though, he came in and did the job he was brought in to do.

Anyone who's bumping their gums about style in a season where the team he took over were joint bottom of the league on points is at it.

This season is really what he'll be judged on long term and tbh, I'm not actually sure what Alexanderball looks like. To be objective about it we played a pile of trialists and school weans in the bounce games against Dumbarton and Millwall to the point that I'm genuinely not sure they can reasonably be considered part of our pre-season in any meaningful way.

The League Cup group looks as if it was used as pre-season. In fact Alexander referred to it as "pre-season" post-match yesterday.

The Hibs game is one where it felt to me like we put out our "strongest" XI and I don't think it's a particularly controversial to say that there was a marked difference in style vs anything we saw in the LC games. Whether that's a more accurate representation of Alexanderball IDK.

So far it feels like we've played 7 "competitive" games this season but only put out close to our "best" XI in 2 of them (both in the league). That's not a defence as such more a general observation.

Either way, the fact we're still openly talking about being "light" in areas and still have recruitment to do means that it still feels like a very incomplete picture.

To lift from @DrewDon's post in the Aberdeen thread earlier "Some of the fringe players gave Glass Alexander good reason not to trust them today yesterday."

Edited August 15, 2021 by capt_oats

[Yorky]

6 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Can someone tell me what our midfield is supposed to be doing? They just never seem in the game. (I missed yesterday)

All the’re doing is not being good enough, we have about the weakest midfield in the division and it desperately needs strengthening with another couple of players. Maguire is not yet at the standard needed, Crawford should not have been given an extended contract, O’Hara and Donnelly need way more game time to get up to speed. Slattery looks promising but he’s going to need others beside him. End of the day formations make a difference but if the players are not good enough it still won’t make you successful. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Yorky

[well fan for life]

Back from my holiday, including taking in a bit of the highland league.

To get this topic back on track:

The Al Raj on Nairn High Street. An excellent chicken Balti. Spiced onions are clearly a different beast once you've left the central belt though.

[For Your Pies Only]

I fully expect we'll be getting a few more signings in, loans or otherwise, based on how poor some of the squad players performed against Dundee. I'm not thrilled that we're saying that after 7 competetive games, but it was probably inevitable that we would still be a work in progress at this point of the season given the turnover of players, especially in midfield. But broadly speaking:

Am I gutted we are out of another cup in the early rounds after a poor performance? Aye.

Would I rather we won the League Cup and finish 10th this season? Aye.

Financially, would it be better for us to finish 7th or 8th regardless of how we do in the League Cup? Looking at the prize money for the last few seasons, probably also aye.

My own feeling is that the decision to treat the LC as a pre-season substitute is probably a club decision, not solely an Alexander decision, especially with so many players comin back from long term injury, inevitable Covid disruption in June/July, and losing a huge chunk of the squad at the end of their contracts. Burrows et al would probably describe that as a pragmatic decision, and they're no exactly wrong, but it doesn't make it any less shite for a fanbase desperate for another cup run (especially after St Johnstone's performances last year). But personally I'm holding back on the 'Aleander out' chat until we're into October and have a better idea of what our squad options are.

If we have to play until January with only the midfielders we have at the moment though... worrying.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I think Alexander pretty much did as good a job as anyone could have really expected last season, by and large results were excellent- St Johnstone and Accies his only real shockers imo- especially given the squad he inherited. I didn't really have much of an issue with the style of play either tbh, it wasn't swashbuckling but he got a tune out of Cole, Watt and Long and you could at least tell we had a plan to win games which was definitely lacking towards the end of Robinson's tenure.

I won't lie though, I'm starting to get a bit concerned. The first 45 minutes against Hibs was great but in the following two and a half games against top flight opposition we've looked entirely second best and anonymous in midfield. I'm hoping O'Donnell, Van Veen and Watt were all carrying knocks yesterday because the concept of chucking a winnable last 16 tie to get some minutes in the legs is honestly bordering on a sackable offence for me, though it's probably preferable to the idea that that was us actually going full pelt trying to win a game.
 

[capt_oats]

50 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I think Alexander pretty much did as good a job as anyone could have really expected last season, by and large results were excellent- St Johnstone and Accies his only real shockers imo- especially given the squad he inherited. I didn't really have much of an issue with the style of play either tbh, it wasn't swashbuckling but he got a tune out of Cole, Watt and Long and you could at least tell we had a plan to win games which was definitely lacking towards the end of Robinson's tenure.

I won't lie though, I'm starting to get a bit concerned. The first 45 minutes against Hibs was great but in the following two and a half games against top flight opposition we've looked entirely second best and anonymous in midfield. I'm hoping O'Donnell, Van Veen and Watt were all carrying knocks yesterday because the concept of chucking a winnable last 16 tie to get some minutes in the legs is honestly bordering on a sackable offence for me, though it's probably preferable to the idea that that was us actually going full pelt trying to win a game.
 

Aye, I doubt it was as overt as being a case of "right lads we're going to play the rezzies...LOL" in fact he had been laying the groundwork in some of the stuff he'd been saying prior to the game.

Paraphrasing but the chat was about how he didn't believe in a two-tier squad and he needs everyone to be able to play their part and that taken as an isolated statement is fine. As a principle there's absolutely zero to argue with it...in fact it's probably a good thing.

SOD has had like 10 days off since he signed last year and played through the Euros, we chucked Bevis in against Hibs without him having even played a bounce game (I think) and I'm sure I saw in the Twitter mentions that Van Veen is carrying a knock...so it's fair enough not risking him.

Taken as individual cases I get giving Grimshaw a run out, Ojala...if not now then when does he get chucked in and Shields has only been available recently...all three missed the LC group games that were supposed to be our "pre-season" as did O'Hara.

Going by his IG today Watt was doing his Sunday treadmill workout so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What interests me is how it contradicts a lot of what we'd hear from Robinson when we had injuries and the like in so much as "we don't have a squad to lose X number of players" and something that I'm fairly sure Alexander echoed himself in that we're not good enough to have all our players not at it.

Choosing to name the line up he did feels wildly naive though and I'd be amazed if anyone looked at that teamline yesterday and didn't think "f**k!"

It kind of feels like yesterday should have been a harsh reality check for Alexander in terms of what he has to work with. We knew the midfield needed addressing and we've brought in one midfielder so far...so we're still limping along trying to make do with what we have.

I get that transfers take a while to complete so in that respect I have sympathy but even if we bring in a bunch of decent quality players in the next fortnight we've still been papped out the cup in a winnable tie.

Which is pretty shite tbh.

Edited August 15, 2021 by capt_oats

[Kapowzer]

I think we're maybe overlooking one elephant in the room which is if Klopp told Andy Robertson to not go beyond the halfway line then Andy becomes an OK defender in a good team opposed to a 15+ assists and 5 goals-ish team of the year first pick.

If I was a player in our team at present and was being perceived as inept by the support but following the managers instructions then I'd feel aggrieved as my value drops, chances of career progression diminish, Thompson and Michael Stewart get to skewer me and I'm getting grief because everything I've learned in the game since Under 5's I'm told to do differently.

The players must be talking in private how if they could do a high press here or park the bus there, flood the midfield against one opponent, or go solo up front against another would be preferable.

I'm first to give Ricki Lamie heat but I do have empathy for him as it must be frustrating to defend 17 corners and however many crosses because they are seemingly invited. It's the footballing equivalent of a shelf stacker at Lidl .... you try and get ahead with your job and you'd be fine but every 10 minutes you're called away to open a second till.

It appears GA is repeatedly putting our players under unnecessary pressure and I've yet to understand how the benefits outweigh the reality of what we are all witnessing.

I'm all for trying this stupid by-kick thing or having two at corner every so often to mix it up but we don't, we persevere and become predictable, it can and is being exploited. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Kapowzer

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I think people may just have got wise to the "let them cross it" game. 

It's fair enough that Alexander sussed it out as something that could improve our defending. But clearly, teams can watch videos of how we play every week and have probably got wise to it. It certainly looked like it at the weekend. At that point, you have to take note and adapt again.

As it's already been mentioned, if you give a team 17 corners, they're bound to score from at least one of them. Not even a corner like Dundee did, but even just from the sustained pressure that comes from them.

I'm also really not good with using the strength of the lineup as an excuse. Injuries are inevitabile and if football is still going to be following stricter COVID rules then so will unavailability be too. That squad on Saturday was literally only missing O'Donnell and Van Veen. 

As much as many of the players are chronically underperforming, I think the shape is killing us just as much as they are.

I was on holiday for the Hibs game and only saw highlights. I'm at the point I feel like I should go back and watch the 90 minutes because I'm really struggling to believe that everyone isn't having me on that we actually played well in one game...

[Casagolda]

See, part of me is beginning to wonder if we actually were that good against Hibs.

Or, if Van Veen’s performance that day coupled with the novelty of properly being ‘back at the fitba’ actually just helped paper over the cracks. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Casagolda

[welldaft]

14 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

See, part of me is beginning to wonder if we actually were that good against Hibs.

Or, if Van Veen’s performance that day coupled with the novelty of properly being ‘back at the fitba’ actually just papered over a fair few cracks. 

For me the League Cup group games were pre season especially based on injuries and new players playing their 1st competitive minutes. It showed but we still qualified by topping the group. So in a way job done. 

We then go onto two league games v two of the better sides from last season outside the Top 2. Not only that both those sides were essentially playing the same teams as last season. So had continuity that we sadly were lacking. I genuinely thought and have said so before that Hibs would win by 2 or 3 goals comfortably. So I was pleasantly surprised by how we performed. And yes we did play well for around 70 minutes and were unlucky not to take anything from the game. 

Against St Johnstone we were not as good but created the better chances and got a draw at a traditionally tough venue. So you could argue that there were visible signs of improvement. 

Then you get Saturday. Of course if Shields scored when he should have done it may have been a different game. But by in large it was a poor performance and very definitely a step backwards. Hence the concerns on here and Steelmen. 

Rightly there is a focus on midfield and defence but to me we are still missing too many guilt edge chances. Hearts had 5 shots at goal v Celtic 34. Score was 3-2. Probably say that Celtic are worse than us at converting, but equally it says that Hearts are much better. 

For me midfield is still the area of greatest concern. I suspect GA felt Donnelly would be part of the solution but he has been very much below the standard we would expect. Understandable maybe with so long out but….Also he know he has OHara to come back and he did use him a lot towards end of last season. But we probably still need a couple more starters in midfield or at least one. That and another forward player. By the sounds of things we are actively trying to get both. So it is a wait and see. 

Two big games coming up. Both winnable. If we get two more average performance and pick up less than 4 points then the knives will be out even this early in the season. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by welldaft

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, Casagolda said:

See, part of me is beginning to wonder if we actually were that good against Hibs.

Or, if Van Veen’s performance that day coupled with the novelty of properly being ‘back at the fitba’ actually just helped paper over the cracks. 

There's an element of that but I don't think it's wide of the mark to say that while we maybe defended like idiots we played on the front foot and with an intensity that we didn't haven't seen in any of the LC ties.

3 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I think people may just have got wise to the "let them cross it" game. 

It's fair enough that Alexander sussed it out as something that could improve our defending. But clearly, teams can watch videos of how we play every week and have probably got wise to it. It certainly looked like it at the weekend. At that point, you have to take note and adapt again.

As it's already been mentioned, if you give a team 17 corners, they're bound to score from at least one of them. Not even a corner like Dundee did, but even just from the sustained pressure that comes from them.

I'm also really not good with using the strength of the lineup as an excuse. Injuries are inevitabile and if football is still going to be following stricter COVID rules then so will unavailability be too. That squad on Saturday was literally only missing O'Donnell and Van Veen. 

As much as many of the players are chronically underperforming, I think the shape is killing us just as much as they are.

I was on holiday for the Hibs game and only saw highlights. I'm at the point I feel like I should go back and watch the 90 minutes because I'm really struggling to believe that everyone isn't having me on that we actually played well in one game...

 the full 90 is available on MFC TV...£6.99 or whatever and you get a month's access to an archive of games.

There's a fair bit of that that I agree with. Adapt or die etc.

The thing is taking the numbers from the games we've played against top flight opposition on face value not as any sort of deep dive only Saturday stands out as any sort of WTF scenario as I don't think anyone would be looking at it and thinking "Holy shit! Hibs and St Johnstone had 2 more corners than us" whereas Dundee's 17 corners to our 7 hits a little different....

Which I suppose begs the question as to what was so different about Saturday?

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by capt_oats

[well fan for life]

10 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Choosing to name the line up he did feels wildly naive though and I'd be amazed if anyone looked at that teamline yesterday and didn't think "f**k!"

It kind of feels like yesterday should have been a harsh reality check for Alexander in terms of what he has to work with. We knew the midfield needed addressing and we've brought in one midfielder so far...so we're still limping along trying to make do with what we have.

As soon as I clocked that line up I was wondering what the f**k we were playing at. My hopes of progression went from being relatively positive to no chance whatsoever. 

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I think people may just have got wise to the "let them cross it" game. 

9 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

I'm first to give Ricki Lamie heat but I do have empathy for him as it must be frustrating to defend 17 corners and however many crosses because they are seemingly invited. It's the footballing equivalent of a shelf stacker at Lidl .... you try and get ahead with your job and you'd be fine but every 10 minutes you're called away to open a second till.

It appears GA is repeatedly putting our players under unnecessary pressure and I've yet to understand how the benefits outweigh the reality of what we are all witnessing.

I'd be fine with this as a tactic if we were playing Bonucci & Chiellini at the back and never lost a header. However it's pretty high stakes because if you don't defend one of those crosses you're ultimately relying on the keeper to bail you out. Which he does regularly. But even still. There's the old adage of it you throw enough shite at a wall some of it's got to stick. 

9 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

I'm all for trying this stupid by-kick thing or having two at corner every so often to mix it up but we don't, we persevere and become predictable, it can and is being exploited. 

This is, largely, where I stand on it. I don't mind us having a couple of different ideas to throw at set pieces but sticking rigidly to it is daft. Annan had us sussed out before a ball was even kicked. There were at least 3 corners I can remember charged down resulting in us getting a throw in (which we've always been notoriously good at in my memory) or ended up booting it straight out of play ourselves. Similarly with goal kicks. I don't regard Lamie or Mugabi as ball playing centre backs so why on earth are you putting pressure on them to be one? Kipré was tremendous at striding out of defence and setting us on the front foot but there's nobody at the club right now could even attempt to do that. 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I can't understand the logic in how (particularly against St. Johnstone) we were happy to launch the ball in to the box from just about any shy we got, but every corner we got, we were trying the two person technique which has very rarely worked.

I also still can not fathom how / why Barry Maguire still is involved in taking corners. If you are 6'2" and you're taking corners, rather than being in the box to attack them, you need to be pretty good at them - and he's not. It was the same last season when he had O'Hara out taking them at points, when being half-decent in the air is one of his strong points.

 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

That's yer Jake Hastie signed for Partick Thistle

[ropy]

8 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

That's yer Jake Hastie signed for Partick Thistle

Good luck to him (do we still have a sell on interest?)

[Ron Aldo]

That's yer Jake Hastie signed for Partick Thistle

LOL

[capt_oats]

Well...this is interesting.

I have no idea how credible big Stian is as a journo.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by capt_oats