Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

['WellDel]

 

 

['WellDel]

Any chance we could stick the big man in as a ringer for a few weeks?

[rowsdower]

I know it sounds crazy, but hear me out.... lucha mask?

Edited November 29, 2023 by rowsdower

[ropy]

3 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Sort of related I noticed a post on Dundee's forum yesterday (not here) that I was curious about.

Like, don't get me wrong I see the broad point and I'm guessing they mean the form KVV (and the team in general) had under Kettlewell but the contrarian in me means I really can't help myself.

Last season (with KVV) under Hammell after 14 league games we were 9th (16 pts), had scored 18 (including 5 vs County) and conceded 19 - KVV had scored 7 in 14 appearances - 1215 mins. KVV mins per goal = 173 mins.

This season we're 9th (13 pts) we've scored 16 (2 fewer) and conceded 21 (2 more) - Biereth has scored 4 in 7 appearances - 406 mins. MB mins per goal = 101 min.

I mentioned in the match thread that where we are at the moment - specifically the fixtures we've lost - isn't that far off where you'd expect us to be in an average/slightly below average Motherwell season.

In comparison, going back to Robinson's first season after 14 games (a completely arbitrary number granted):

23/24 (Kettlewell) - P 14: 9th F: 16 A: 21 Pts: 13 - Final position TBC
22/23 (Hammell/Kettlewell) - P 14: 9th F: 18 A 19 Pts: 16 - Final position 7th
21/22 (Alexander) - P 14: 5th F: 19 A: 21 Pts: 21 - Final position 5th
20/21 (Robinson/Alexander) - P: 14 8th F: 15 A: 21 Pts: 15 - Final position 8th
19/20 (Robinson) - P: 14 4th F: 21 A: 22 Pts: 22 - Final position 3rd*
18/19 (Robinson) - P: 14 9th F: 15 A: 24 Pts: 14 - Final position 8th
17/18 (Robinson) - P: 14 5th F: 21 A: 16 Pts: 23 - Final position 7th

Clearly a number of these seasons saw a change in manager mid-way through the season in order to turn things around but I guess the point I'm making (if I'm making one at all) is that it's pretty fine margins between where we are just now and objectively *good* seasons where we've finished Top 6 or whatever.

We have scored more than 2 of the teams who have a striker they are happy with. 

[thisGRAEME]

6 minutes ago, rowsdower said:

I know it sounds crazy, but hear me out.... lucha mask?

It's possible; 

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1720004/La-Liga-Gerard-Pique-tournament-football-news-Barcelona-Kings-League-masked-player

 

[SteelyDosser]

1 hour ago, rowsdower said:

I know it sounds crazy, but hear me out.... lucha mask?

Van Conquistador!

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

2 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

We do have a more extreme sugar or shite than most clubs, I think? We've been living with fairly wild swings in form since latter day Robinson, Alexander or Kettlewell. Hammell was just shite. 

Robinson we were great for the first half 2019/20, then barely kicked a ball until it was canned. Started the next season doing the things we should then fell off a cliff to be emptied in January.

Alexander from that January 2021 until around December 2021 was pretty much what you'd expect from us, then were an eye-bleeding shambles until he was binned post Sligo.

[SCENE MISSING]

Kettlewell barely lost a game from February 2023 til September 2023 and then has barely got a point since.

It's quite tiring, tbh.

I don't know about the stats of any other team, but the fact we've gone 11, 11 and 12 games without winning in the last three full seasons and the lowest we have finished is a very comfortable 8th (which was actually joint 5th points wise), would tell you we must have more massive swings than others.

At least now that we are ten games (and counting) without a win, we must be due a good run by those standards!

[capt_oats]

7 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

COVID seasons are not canon.

Thank you.

Fair.

Fwiw, this is where we were after 14 games in the seasons under McCall.

13/14 (McCall) - P: 14 3rd F 16 A 18 Pts 25 - Final position 2nd 
12/13 (McCall) - P: 14 4th F 22 A 19 Pts 20 - Final position 2nd
11/12 (McCall) - P: 14 3rd F 18 A 17 Pts 26 - Final Position 3rd
10/11  (Brown/McCall) - P: 14 5th F 22 A 16 Pts - 23 - Final Position 6th 

Even in this case, to speak to your other post we're finishing 2nd and 3rd in these seasons which is above average for a Motherwell side in general. We then go from 2nd to 11th the next season.

The Baraclough/McGhee season we'd emptied the bold Bara after 8 league games and were 10th on 14 points after 14 games.

15/16 (Baraclough/McGhee) - P: 14 10th F 11 A 18 Pts 14 - Final Position 5th. At that point we were 4 points off County in 5th on 18 points.

It's massively stating the obvious in so much as "If you win more games you finish higher in the league...DUH!" but you've spoken about it often on the pod - these objectively *good* seasons are the ones where we've made hay while other teams have been mince but I suppose what I'm getting at is that the difference between where we are now and a fairly average season for us where we finish 7th or 8th is probably not beating St Mirren at home and losing to Livi away and those are the fine margins - looking at the games we've lost on this run it's been St Mirren (h), Rangers (a), Celtic (h), Livi (a), Aberdeen (h), Killie (a), Hearts (h).

Like, of a fair to middling season would it be that much of a surprise if we lost at Ibrox, at home to Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts and away to Killie? I mean, probably not?

[Handsome_Devil]

We repeat all the time that the margins are baw-hair thin - but while you can go winless for a few, there's a point when you're not unlucky but just shite. Or in shite form, at least.

I also think there's no doubt that not only the results of a season matter but their order. I've said before the past is a weak currency in football - you can take the old market phrase that the past is no guarantee of future results and apply it here.

If Alexander had started 2021/22 patchily it would have been entirely expected. Reaching Europe with a strong finish would suggest better to come. Instead, for all he produced an unexpectedly brilliant August-December, by May everyone had made their mind up on the direction of travel.

You win the game, avoid relegation or lift the cup and you get a pat on the back but from the next day the question is what can you do next. It's why in our current run SK's credit in the bank is worth much less now than the achievement of it at the time.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Sort of on that point but we always seem to end seasons on a- relative- high.

2023- finished 7th after a mad run of form.

2022- clinched Europe on the second last day

2021- stayed up comfortably after looking down and out

2020- covid

2019- finished 8th with Turnbull, Hastie etc breaking through 

2018- league campaign petered out, lost the cup final

2017- stayed up on second last day

2016- finished 5th, would have got Europe if Celtic had won the cup

2015- stayed up in the playoffs

2014- finished 2nd on final day

2013- romped to 2nd

2012- finished 3rd

In 11 seasons that probably only leaves 2017/18 one as the only one that didn't unambiguously end on a high, probably overshadowed by the emotion of the cup final. I can't really be arsed going back any further but it generally feels like if we're usually either in the running for something post-split and manage to achieve it, or have coasted to safety fairly comfortably after looking fucked.

[well fan for life]

I know supporting a club like Motherwell is a rollercoaster but it's full on, neck snapping whiplash in the last few years watching us go from one extreme to the other.

Can we just have like 2 months of bang average form?

[Swello]

40 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Sort of on that point but we always seem to end seasons on a- relative- high.

2023- finished 7th after a mad run of form.

2022- clinched Europe on the second last day

2021- stayed up comfortably after looking down and out

2020- covid

2019- finished 8th with Turnbull, Hastie etc breaking through 

2018- league campaign petered out, lost the cup final

2017- stayed up on second last day

2016- finished 5th, would have got Europe if Celtic had won the cup

2015- stayed up in the playoffs

2014- finished 2nd on final day

2013- romped to 2nd

2012- finished 3rd

In 11 seasons that probably only leaves 2017/18 one as the only one that didn't unambiguously end on a high, probably overshadowed by the emotion of the cup final. I can't really be arsed going back any further but it generally feels like if we're usually either in the running for something post-split and manage to achieve it, or have coasted to safety fairly comfortably after looking fucked.

We're spoilt bastarts going mental at every bad run of form - we're not badly off when you read that

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Sort of on that point but we always seem to end seasons on a- relative- high.

2023- finished 7th after a mad run of form.

2022- clinched Europe on the second last day

2021- stayed up comfortably after looking down and out

2020- covid

2019- finished 8th with Turnbull, Hastie etc breaking through 

2018- league campaign petered out, lost the cup final

2017- stayed up on second last day

2016- finished 5th, would have got Europe if Celtic had won the cup

2015- stayed up in the playoffs

2014- finished 2nd on final day

2013- romped to 2nd

2012- finished 3rd

In 11 seasons that probably only leaves 2017/18 one as the only one that didn't unambiguously end on a high, probably overshadowed by the emotion of the cup final. I can't really be arsed going back any further but it generally feels like if we're usually either in the running for something post-split and manage to achieve it, or have coasted to safety fairly comfortably after looking fucked.

I suppose the correlation there is how many of those seasons have we changed manager mid-season?

22/23 - Kettlewell replaces Hammell
20/21 - Alexander replaces Robinson
16/17 - Robinson replaces McGhee
15/16 - McGhee replaces Baraclough
14/15 - Baraclough replaces McCall

As as been mentioned before this culture of binning managers on the regular is bad vibes but it does make you wonder whether the wild swings we're seeing is a consequence of this in so much as we're going from one extreme of unsustainable form to the other with absolutely nothing in between.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

36 minutes ago, Swello said:

We're spoilt bastarts going mental at every bad run of form - we're not badly off when you read that

Aye it had never really crossed my mind that we basically get to end every season with a lap of honour accompanied by, at worst, polite applause and, at best, Keith Lasley and a megaphone. May and June are generally pretty serene too until we start to actually sign people, but even then it's rare as a modern Motherwell fan to spend the off-season absolutely raging about the previous nine months.

[RandomGuy.]

I honestly think you're just thinking about it too much as a Motherwell thing.

Our seasons under TW were virtually the same with wild swings of non-form and form. In his last season we were doomed by November then the best team outwith Celtic until Covid stopped the season. Even under Lomas we had spells of shite then spells of class.

Its just the nature of footballer you can get at this level I think, combined with how tight the league is quality wise most years.

[ropy]

We should give managers contracts from January to mid December and get the youth team boy to see us over Christmas then repeat.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I'd quite like to see the £20 fine for bad social media posts implemented club-wide

[Richie]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/david-turnbull-ac-milan-transfer-31559644

Interesting

[well fan for life]

3 minutes ago, Richie said:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/david-turnbull-ac-milan-transfer-31559644

Interesting

I reckon wherever he ends up next he'll be a revelation. 

[CoF]

I would love to see Turnbull at any club outwith Scotland. He’s still great to watch - even his penalty against us at the weekend was just classy, however I’ve little interest in his career at Celtic. Seeing him walking out for AC Milan would be amazing.