ropy Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 Others have mentioned that if we had collected the points in a different order then folk would be happier. This dovetails with my oft repeated mantra that a point a game is my target. We are a point below par which isn’t enough to bin a manager, I accept that the trend is downwards and that things may change. But they may change for the better! When did it become the case that the only solution was to sack the manager, we’ve done that before and the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again hoping for a different outcome. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 17 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/scottish-premiership/tabellenachminuten/wettbewerb/SC1?saison_id=2023&range=90'%3BFull+Time&time_start=91&time_end=AB Celtic close the gap at the top of the table with 3 points today from a Jamesy Forrest strike. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, ropy said: Others have mentioned that if we had collected the points in a different order then folk would be happier. This dovetails with my oft repeated mantra that a point a game is my target. We are a point below par which isn’t enough to bin a manager, I accept that the trend is downwards and that things may change. But they may change for the better! When did it become the case that the only solution was to sack the manager, we’ve done that before and the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again hoping for a different outcome. I agree with the sentiment and I can only echo the point that's been made that it's bad business and bad vibes to be continually emptying managers. However as @YassinMoutaouakil mentioned in a previous post we've generally had decent finishes to the season when we've changed manager mid-season so that kind of undermines the point that it's insanity. Broadly it's worked out quite well for us: On 29/11/2023 at 19:59, YassinMoutaouakil said: Sort of on that point but we always seem to end seasons on a- relative- high. 2023- finished 7th after a mad run of form. 2022- clinched Europe on the second last day 2021- stayed up comfortably after looking down and out 2020- covid 2019- finished 8th with Turnbull, Hastie etc breaking through 2018- league campaign petered out, lost the cup final 2017- stayed up on second last day 2016- finished 5th, would have got Europe if Celtic had won the cup 2015- stayed up in the playoffs 2014- finished 2nd on final day 2013- romped to 2nd 2012- finished 3rd In 11 seasons that probably only leaves 2017/18 one as the only one that didn't unambiguously end on a high, probably overshadowed by the emotion of the cup final. I can't really be arsed going back any further but it generally feels like if we're usually either in the running for something post-split and manage to achieve it, or have coasted to safety fairly comfortably after looking fucked. On 29/11/2023 at 21:14, capt_oats said: I suppose the correlation there is how many of those seasons have we changed manager mid-season? 22/23 - Kettlewell replaces Hammell 20/21 - Alexander replaces Robinson 16/17 - Robinson replaces McGhee 15/16 - McGhee replaces Baraclough 14/15 - Baraclough replaces McCall As as been mentioned before this culture of binning managers on the regular is bad vibes but it does make you wonder whether the wild swings we're seeing is a consequence of this in so much as we're going from one extreme of unsustainable form to the other with absolutely nothing in between. There's an argument that the job he was asked to do last season ie: pick up the pieces from the situation Hammell left and save our season is an entirely different thing to the longer term project. I suppose it's entirely possible for him to have been the right guy for one but not the other and again I've said it before but it feels like right now he's tying himself in knots and not really helping himself with square pegs in round holes when the approach that gave him his success in the first place was a clarity of vision. That's not me saying I want him gone or anything but I don't think it's unreasonable for questions to be being asked when you look at the winless run and the fact we haven't kept a clean sheet in 11 league games. Edited December 3, 2023 by capt_oats 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 I agree it works out for us, then we have a slump. I would like to see a manager getting time to build something. I hoped that would be Robinson but he ran out of ideas too. I don’t specifically think that Kettlewell is the dream manager for Motherwell he just happens to be in possession just now. The crowd shouted for McLean to resign year after year then he won a cup. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 Anyway it doesn’t look like anyone is challenging us for 8th place in the league today. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz1886 Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 20 hours ago, Molotov said: @Muzz1886 what is your current opinion on Kettlewell? Personally I think Motherwell have been extremely unlucky in a number of games. A new manager “bounce” could be the best option leading into the January shutdown and transfer window. I might be going again the current widely held opinion of Kettlewell, however I think he should still have until at least Christmas. Just taking the last 2 games in isolation; a great point at Celtic Park followed up by a great start yesterday which was undone by poor defensive mistakes, again. From minute 5, you could feel the confidence being sucked out of the team, they're used to chasing a game rather than managing a lead. They didn't have long to wait until we were back in our default position. There is no doubt that there is a good team spirit (last minute goal rescues another point, again), so the players are playing for him however most of the positions that we've found ourselves in this season have been self inflicted due to individual errors and shite goalkeeping. For me, the big difference between this season and last actually isn't KvV, it's because the wing backs aren't of the same quality. Furlong and Johnston's strength and pace haven't been adequately replaced. Spencer needs to be on the right, and either SoD or Gent on the left. Overall, the tension in the stands isn't helping the team. Our fan base needs to be realistic, we're not a big club or business, 9th is about right for us, and we can't keep sacking managers. We're one poor managerial appointment from relegation. We persisted with Robbo after a run just like this one and it worked (the first time anyway) and he turned it around. Kettlewell has earned his chance until Christmas due to last season's performance. TLDR; aye, I still back him. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsjoe_mfc Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 The minutes we've scored this season is astounding. 84% of our goals in the second half. 74% of our goals 74 minutes or later. 32% of our goals in the 90th minute or later. We've only scored one first half home goal (three in total). We've only scored the first goal four times. Two of which we've conceded the next goal and then failed to win. We've only scored one goal whilst winning (Biereth vs Hibs). All told, this has probably been the only point all season that we've been "comfortable". We've lost the first goal eleven times. Positively, we've equalised six times and gone on to draw five or them (Celtic at home being the exception), so at least we don't chuck it. On the other hand, for how often we concede first, we've yet to come back and win. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gianfranco Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 If we don’t beat County or St Johnstone then he deserves the sack to be honest. I want him to turn it around but the longer this run goes the tougher it’ll be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillips455 Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 I'd say we need to get a minimum of 12 points out of the 18 available. Obviously, the Christmas eve Rangers games going to be 0 points (they will get atleast 1 penalty in that game). The run up is actually a good test of how we are performing since we are playing the teams around us (or normally would be around us). Ross County - need to win. Honestly hinging the next few games performances around this. Would ensure that we are 3 points above them whilst they have a game in hand. St Johnstone - they are in a similar position to us. Same could be Said for Ross County and Livingston. St Mirren - Done very well at the start of this season but have been off the boil for the past few games. Rangers - The less stated about this, the better. Aberdeen - quite a mixed bag. They haven't done well recently but they made it to the league cup final. Who knows how well they will be doing by this time. Livingston - just as bad as us, yet they won comfortably in our last game. One clear issue is conceding. Only 1 clean sheet is absolutley abysmal. Hoping for change but if we don't win the next 2 then a change may have to happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santheman Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 When you've got a goalie who doesn't command his box, a defence that is continually ball watching instead of the players they're supposed to be marking and a midfield that doesn't or can't pick up runners into the box then we're always going to concede cheap goals. All things that should be sorted on the training field and it's up to Kettlewell and the coaches to make sure they are. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 2 hours ago, ropy said: I agree it works out for us, then we have a slump. I would like to see a manager getting time to build something. I hoped that would be Robinson but he ran out of ideas too. I don’t specifically think that Kettlewell is the dream manager for Motherwell he just happens to be in possession just now. The crowd shouted for McLean to resign year after year then he won a cup. I mean, Robinson was here for 3.5 seasons that's pretty much the shelf life for a manager at a club like Motherwell. He lasted 169 games compared to McCall's 174. The only other managers we've had to last longer than 100 games in one stint since McLean have been McLeish (156 games), Davies (123 games) and Butcher (175 games). The other point about Robinson is that he was pragmatic enough to realise when something either wasn't working or when it was simply about grinding things out to shitfest a win. That run where things fucked up after the Celtic trilogy in his first season amounted to 8 games without a win (draws against Celtic at FP and Dundee at FP) but he was coming off a cup final. In the season he resigned it was after a run of 8 without a win in the league (we also lost to St Johnstone in the League cup) that run included 3 draws - St Johnstone (a), Aberdeen (h) and United (a). I was just a wee guy during McLean's early years (my first game was December 1986) and I probably started going regularly around 1989 onward so that window of good stuff matched my formative years. Anyway, I feel like the culture around the fitba' was very different at that time but was McLean prone to going on double digit winless runs? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YassinMoutaouakil Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 Class guys, love it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 36 minutes ago, capt_oats said: I was just a wee guy during McLean's early years (my first game was December 1986) and I probably started going regularly around 1989 onward so that window of good stuff matched my formative years. Anyway, I feel like the culture around the fitba' was very different at that time but was McLean prone to going on double digit winless runs? It felt like winless seasons at a time. But he was building something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoF Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 7 hours ago, RostokMcSpoons said: I missed yesterday's game (would've watched via Motherwell TV) but I came to the boards last night expecting something a bit more positive than what I saw. I thought a sort-of positive result snatched from the jaws of defeat would've got at least some people to show a tiny bit of optimism. Guess I'll have to watch the whole match replay today. I think in any other circumstance that would be the case, but that's the fourth game in eleven where it felt like we had reason to be optimistic and the following game has inevitably been shite. A late equaliser at Parkhead then onto an early goal vs Dundee should have given us some badly needed confidence. Instead, after Biereth puts us in front, we play some of the worst football we've seen this season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 54 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said: Class guys, love it! I mean, sure...read the room and all that lads but at the same time that's a genuinely lovely goal. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well fan for life Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 9 minutes ago, capt_oats said: I mean, sure...read the room and all that lads but at the same time that's a genuinely lovely goal. Always rated that lad Shaw. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 I was happy to credit Shaw for the assist last night but actually he slipped inside one player then slid the ball out and into Wilkinson’s stride. That’s football, that could catch on. Well done. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsjoe_mfc Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 I think what @capt_oatssaid yesterday about the "supply teacher" vibes from Kettlewell is spot on. Last season he inherited a squad of about 30 players and was able to use about 14 of them to great effect. This summer was always going to be a big test. Having 30 odd players someone else picked is a lot different to having 18 with a fair chunk of them picked by you. 3-5-2 suited the lot that he inherited, but I expected him to perhaps be a bit wiser than to go and hang his entire recruitment plan on it this summer. If you look at how we started the season, it was with two wing backs in their 30s, who with all due respect to, aren't going to hit the byline and get crosses in, or carry the ball up the park consistently for you. If you looked at Pape Souare's age and injury record and thought he was your best option, surely you'd maybe think a back four might be better. I also think with the shape, with the volume and frequency we concede goals at, our three centre backs are very rarely in any kind of proper shape. I look at the 3rd goal yesterday and I'm instantly drawn to thinking "why isn't Spencer tucking in?" but when I take a step back, I'm more thinking "where are the three centre backs?" My one reason for sympathy for the defenders is that we seem to have to defend relentlessly. Our strikers don't hold on to the ball well enough, currently with Miller out and Goss having departed, we don't have anyone playing clever forward passes and there doesn't seem to be anyone who can carry the ball forward. This might just be my perception, but it seems to be when the ball goes forward, it very quickly comes back. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliphas Posted December 4, 2023 Share Posted December 4, 2023 As ever, there's multiple things at play, which have been talked about, but for me underpinning everything is the squad Kettlewell has assembled. He was asked to absolutely knive it and save money. He did very well on that front and gets the plaudits. But his recruitment following that has been very poor and forced himself and us into corners this season due to having a severe lack of flexibility.. He's compounded that by some mad selection choices (e.g. Spittal at left back) recently. As @crazylegsjoe has said above, he's essentially stuck all his eggs in the 5-3-2 basket and doesn't play the right type of players to make it effective. In January I really think we need to get a different option in an attacking sense. Mika has some pace but Wilko/Bair/Obika/Shaw are all very similar. So an attacker who is a different type of player would be nice. Means we need to at least try and cut ties with Shaw to make space if we can. We also need a mobile defensive midfielder. Slattery/Spittal/Paton are all better better further forward in my view. Miller is great at moving the ball but isn't a hard man. Davor is...who knows. In this system to play two up we need to have someone who can sit and defend and protect the defence. Saturday proved unfortunately that Butcher isn't mobile enough to do that in a 3 man midfield. Part of box 4 maybe he can. Defence I actually think we are fine. They've all regressed since last season and are often trying to hard, rushing out to fill gaps etc which is all on the coaching and setup and instruction for me more than individually bad players. A couple of players like that would open up options on how we set up, how we can change a game. Hopefully settle some players down too. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosser1886 Posted December 4, 2023 Share Posted December 4, 2023 12 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said: My one reason for sympathy for the defenders is that we seem to have to defend relentlessly. Our strikers don't hold on to the ball well enough, currently with Miller out and Goss having departed, we don't have anyone playing clever forward passes and there doesn't seem to be anyone who can carry the ball forward. This might just be my perception, but it seems to be when the ball goes forward, it very quickly comes back. We also have zero confidence. When we do try and keep the ball on the deck I lost count of the number of times a bad pass gave the ball straight to an oposing player and this put us on the back foot. Also other teams press us much better than we seem to be able to press them and we then inevitably cough the ball up and we are defending..again. As a result of all this we resort to route one long balls that our forwards usually lose and guess what, we are defending again. Even from our own throw ins we lose the ball and are having to defend again. A lot to try and sort out. Lack of confidence in themselves and those around them is a major factor imo. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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