Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Handsome_Devil]

4 minutes ago, ropy said:

Just watching Sportscene there and thinking that if the board were to pull the trigger it would be because Blair Spittal couldn’t slide the ball between the posts.  

Watching from the first angle I thought he was unlucky to have just missed but you see it from behind the goal he wasn't even that close. Shame because he did brilliantly to that point.

Bair's miss was both worse and not as annoying. It was an absolutely pathetic effort but I don't expect any better from him.

[capt_oats]

18 hours ago, GorbalsMags said:

Usually I agree with this but St Johnstone both this season and last season axed managers at different times and both times it worked out and was the right decision

In fairness, we’ve emptied plenty of managers mid-season and generally we’ve got the timing correct and it’s proved to be the correct short-term decision.

4 minutes ago, ropy said:

Just watching Sportscene there and thinking that if the board were to pull the trigger it would be because Blair Spittal couldn’t slide the ball between the posts.  

I mean, sure but you’d think the previous 13 games would factor into the decision rather than it hinging on that singular moment.

[welldaft]

2 minutes ago, Quatermass said:

Had no idea we were playing Aberdeen on the 27th. Thought it was Livi straight after Rangers. I think Aberdeen will kick on now. With Europe and the Final out of the way they can fully focus on the league so I expect them so be out of sight soon. A run of 16 without a win going up against Livi? I can’t see anything else.

I’m slightly impressed many are remaining calm in respect to Kettlewell and the ‘run’. I’d say I’m equally as calm…….but I’d still make the change. Is there any evidence of a modern manager being on such a run and turning it around? The Club comes before any individual. Relegation could be catastrophic and coming straight back up holds no guarantees. 
 

I know we have had to cut playing squad numbers. Does anyone know where we would sit in the budget league table. Do we have the 11th biggest budget in the league For example? If so then relegation will happen. If not this season then over the course of the next two.

If we have the 10th biggest budget in the league there is an argument (a crude one admittedly) that Kettlewell is failing in that respect already.

For me it hinges on the Livi game. Unless we get absolutely hammered in the two games preceding.

Whatever we get next two games is absolutely a bonus. 

But to lose at home to the team at the bottom of the table assuming they do not get points away to Aberdeen and Celtic is where the board have a decision to make. Just before the window opens and the winter break. 

That is unless the Board feel that they will wait and see how things pan out after the window assuming he gets funds / players to strengthen.

But lose to Livi at home and probably going bottom of the league in the process means the noise from the fans will be louder than at any point before. 

I still want him to succeed. We probably deserved to just edge the game yesterday. But I might think and ultimately decide his tea is oot if we lose on Dec 30th at Fir Park.

[ropy]

2 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

In fairness, we’ve emptied plenty of managers mid-season and generally we’ve got the timing correct and it’s proved to be the correct short-term decision.

I mean, sure but you’d think the previous 13 games would factor into the decision rather than it hinging on that singular moment.

I just meant that if he scored, the trigger wouldn’t have been pulled.  It hasn’t (yet).

[welldaft]

3 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Watching from the first angle I thought he was unlucky to have just missed but you see it from behind the goal he wasn't even that close. Shame because he did brilliantly to that point.

Bair's miss was both worse and not as annoying. It was an absolutely pathetic effort but I don't expect any better from him.

I said at the time if he just shoots straight at goal hard and low it probably ends up in the back of the net. The goalie coming out maybe made up his mind to try and find the corner.

I think you are being harsh on Bair. It is at a difficult angle - he did shoot low and fairly hard. To me the goalkeeper makes a good save. I don’t disagree however that a better player may hit the back of the net or even goes around the goalie and rolls it into an empty net. Somebody mentioned that Wilkinson probably scores with those chances. We will never know but I suspect there is an element of truth in that viewpoint. 

 

[Handsome_Devil]

3 minutes ago, welldaft said:

I think you are being harsh on Bair. It is at a difficult angle - he did shoot low and fairly hard. To me the goalkeeper makes a good save. I don’t disagree however that a better player may hit the back of the net or even goes around the goalie and rolls it into an empty net. Somebody mentioned that Wilkinson probably scores with those chances. We will never know but I suspect there is an element of truth in that viewpoint. 

 

Mibbes...but he had the angle at the near post and got absolutely nowhere near it. And as he was aiming rather than getting the laces right through it, I don't know think it was that hard either. Certainly if that had been hit straight at Kelly, I'd have fully expected him to save it.

I'd definitely back Wilkinson on those chances above Bair, for all his other flaws.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Mibbes...but he had the angle at the near post and got absolutely nowhere near it. And as he was aiming rather than getting the laces right through it, I don't know think it was that hard either. Certainly if that had been hit straight at Kelly, I'd have fully expected him to save it.

I'd definitely back Wilkinson on those chances above Bair, for all his other flaws.

I have nothing against big CareBair but it's an absolutely shocking attempt and you can also add me to the Big Wilko would have scored a couple of those chances gang.

1 hour ago, Quatermass said:

Had no idea we were playing Aberdeen on the 27th. Thought it was Livi straight after Rangers. I think Aberdeen will kick on now. With Europe and the Final out of the way they can fully focus on the league so I expect them so be out of sight soon. A run of 16 without a win going up against Livi? I can’t see anything else.

I’m slightly impressed many are remaining calm in respect to Kettlewell and the ‘run’. I’d say I’m equally as calm…….but I’d still make the change. Is there any evidence of a modern manager being on such a run and turning it around? The Club comes before any individual. Relegation could be catastrophic and coming straight back up holds no guarantees. It is not working under Kettlewell. Simple as that.
 

I know we have had to cut playing numbers. Does anyone know where we would sit in the budget league table. Do we have the 11th biggest budget in the league For example? If so then relegation will happen. If not this season then over the course of the next two.

If we have the 10th biggest budget in the league there is an argument (a crude one admittedly) that Kettlewell is failing in that respect already.

Ultimately I suppose the point is that we're not losing games.

If, after the County game, we'd gone into the sort of spiral we saw hit Hammell after the St Johnstone game at Fir Park and ended at Starks Park in the cup then I have no doubt Kettlewell would be gone but while you can argue that we were within minutes of losing against County, St Johnstone, Celtic and Dundee...we didn't.

It's an arbitrary number but here are Kettlewell's last 10 results:

These were Hammell's final 8 plus the 2 Cup games:

To be clear that's not a pro-Kettlewell post but I guess it's probably a tougher decision to bin a manager off the back of draws than it is a series of losses (including one to a lower league club).

Edited December 17, 2023 by capt_oats

[RandomGuy.]

We gave Davidson a "second chance" after his shite run and fortunate avoidance of relegation, and he simply repeated things the next season.

You can look for excuses and caveats all you like, but ultimately any team that doesnt win in 16 matches (and counting) arent working under a capable manager. 

[GorbalsMags]

Just now, RandomGuy. said:

We gave Davidson a "second chance" after his shite run and fortunate avoidance of relegation, and he simply repeated things the next season.

You can look for excuses and caveats all you like, but ultimately any team that doesnt win in 16 matches (and counting) arent working under a capable manager. 

And if we'd kept him in we could easily have ended up in the playoffs again with a club losing money hand over fist because of his recruitment policies.

[capt_oats]

3 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

We gave Davidson a "second chance" after his shite run and fortunate avoidance of relegation, and he simply repeated things the next season.

You can look for excuses and caveats all you like, but ultimately any team that doesnt win in 16 matches (and counting) arent working under a capable manager. 

No wins in 14 (and counting) thank you very much.

[RandomGuy.]

3 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

No wins in 14 (and counting) thank you very much.

Same point, IMO. 

Theres a very real chance you dont win until the winter break now, which then likely means you make the call to change manager in the window and find yourself a step behind everyone else in that window and panic signing. Changing now gives someone weeks to work on what to get.

Fiddling while Rome burns etc.

[capt_oats]

FWIW: this is the run of results that led to Robinson's resignation.

Edited December 17, 2023 by capt_oats

[ropy]

1 hour ago, welldaft said:

I said at the time if he just shoots straight at goal hard and low it probably ends up in the back of the net. The goalie coming out maybe made up his mind to try and find the corner.

I think you are being harsh on Bair. It is at a difficult angle - he did shoot low and fairly hard. To me the goalkeeper makes a good save. I don’t disagree however that a better player may hit the back of the net or even goes around the goalie and rolls it into an empty net. Somebody mentioned that Wilkinson probably scores with those chances. We will never know but I suspect there is an element of truth in that viewpoint. 

 

Aye, I think I suggested a hat trick, but if he was on the end of a couple of them I would have been confident of a goal.

[ropy]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Mibbes...but he had the angle at the near post and got absolutely nowhere near it. And as he was aiming rather than getting the laces right through it, I don't know think it was that hard either. Certainly if that had been hit straight at Kelly, I'd have fully expected him to save it.

I'd definitely back Wilkinson on those chances above Bair, for all his other flaws.

I was disappointed at Biereth’s effort, he seemed to overrun the ball and ended up scooping it with his left, he is better than that.  The ‘assist’ for Slattery’s miss was perfection, and his throo ball for Spittal was sublime.

[RandomGuy.]

45 minutes ago, GorbalsMags said:

And if we'd kept him in we could easily have ended up in the playoffs again with a club losing money hand over fist because of his recruitment policies.

The same signs are there as with Kettlewell.

Stuck to a set up, built your squad to it so lack any form of flexibility. Any changes are either enforced or sheer dumb luck. Any changes that work will be blindly stuck with until they stop working, at which point you blindly revert to the original plan that hadnt been working. Hes even got the knack of saving his job with late goals to win points on the go.

[GorbalsMags]

4 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

The same signs are there as with Kettlewell.

Stuck to a set up, built your squad to it so lack any form of flexibility. Any changes are either enforced or sheer dumb luck. Any changes that work will be blindly stuck with until they stop working, at which point you blindly revert to the original plan that hadnt been working. Hes even got the knack of saving his job with late goals to win points on the go.

First as tragedy, second as farce

[ropy]

So 2 respectable defeats then some sort of result against Livingston will see us enter the winter break. And the transfer window.  What are we looking for, we already have a hundred strikers and as many central defenders out injured as we play on a game day. Is it midfielders and wingers?

Surely Biereth has come across some talent during his days in the youth ranks, get another couple of young guys in.

[capt_oats]

11 minutes ago, ropy said:

So 2 respectable defeats then some sort of result against Livingston will see us enter the winter break. And the transfer window.  What are we looking for, we already have a hundred strikers and as many central defenders out injured as we play on a game day. Is it midfielders and wingers?

Surely Biereth has come across some talent during his days in the youth ranks, get another couple of young guys in.

A new manager.

[Quatermass]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

FWIW: this is the run of results that led to Robinson's resignation.

9 games. Wouldn’t even be noticed these days.

[capt_oats]

38 minutes ago, Quatermass said:

9 games. Wouldn’t even be noticed these days.

Again, to be fair, it was Robinson who made that decision. He resigned - it wasn't a sacking.

The story was that much like McCall we were open to keeping him on board.

Speaking of whom...here's his run up to his resignation (ironically those 2 wins and a draw mean he had accrued more points (7) than Kettlewell in his 14 game run (6)).

Edited December 17, 2023 by capt_oats