Handsome_Devil Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 1 hour ago, welldaft said: Totally agree. He talked up the fact that it was a positive he introduced Ferrie and Wells. We all want to see youth given a chance, but there is a time and a place and being 1-0 down to a streetwise and experienced Aberdeen team is imho not the time. I was fine with him chucking them on. We were huffing and puffing, and had nothing to lose in a game which was (we hope) largely meaningless. I'd much rather throw them in yesterday's situation than when we're defending something a la Cornelius at Tannadice. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welldaft Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said: I was fine with him chucking them on. We were huffing and puffing, and had nothing to lose in a game which was (we hope) largely meaningless. I'd much rather throw them in yesterday's situation than when we're defending something a la Cornelius at Tannadice. I accept mine is not a popular opinion. Young players are often heralded as untouchable and whilst I am not in any way singling them out as the reason we lost. The simple fact is that that neither made any noticeable contribution to turning our fortunes around. That is the whole point of substitutions. If Vale and Lennon Miller could not complete the full 90 minutes then fine we obviously have few options, but no one is telling me the two kids were more likely to dig us out of a hole than those two who were on the pitch. Pretty much all I am saying. As to the game being largely meaningless. That is one leap of faith. A meaningless game to me is when we are confirmed bottom 6 and mathematically unable to finish in 11th or 12th. Even then with every league placing worth £60,000 or thereabouts and us scrambling about for investment……. Edited March 17 by welldaft 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handsome_Devil Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 23 minutes ago, welldaft said: I accept mine is not a popular opinion. Young players are often heralded as untouchable and whilst I am not in any way singling them out as the reason we lost. The simple fact is that that neither made any noticeable contribution to turning our fortunes around. That is the whole point of substitutions. As to the game being largely meaningless. That is one leap of faith. A meaningless game to me is when we are confirmed bottom 6 and mathematically unable to finish in 11th or 12th. Even then with every league placing worth £60,000 or thereabouts and us scrambling about for investment……. They certainly added bugger all, no argument there, but we nearly all agree we want to develop players and part of the cost of that is the make mistakes or don't contribute much initially. The logic of short-term pain for long-term gain is sound, frustrating as it is to watch in practice. Each to their own on whether it was meaningless or not and again whether you value the extra league place more than minutes for the boys...it's a fine line and I wouldn't be starting the pair of them next week for the sake of it. But if - say - the seemingly decently rated Wells leaves on the basis we never gave him a chance and he turns into a player, we'll look pretty stupid having refused to throw him on because the pursuit of eighth rather than ninth was deemed all important. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casagolda Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 To be fair Luca Ross got chucked on earlier this season and scored the equaliser against Ross County. That’s his only league appearance to date and he still has as many league goals as Shaw(our most used sub) and Obika(our 3rd most used sub) combined. Ultimately if these boys don’t play, they leave. Wells as above for example is out of contract and has options on the table from elsewhere, the only chance you have of getting him to commit is to show him a genuine path to first team football. I’m not sure a few mins in some post split dead rubbers will do it. I mean you learn absolutely nothing by chucking him on when we’re 3-0 up with a few minutes to go anyway and neither does the laddie. They might struggle at times but I guarantee the two of them will have learned more in 10-20 mins yesterday, playing in that sort of environment under that sort of pressure than they would in 120 games of development football. If even one of them develops into a first team player and potentially sellable asset as well, well then that will surely be a lot more valuable in the long run than sneaking a point from yesterdays game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesP_81 Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 I get the shout about throwing youngsters into a competitive game instead of a game that's all but over , but at the time I definitely felt like the subs had the feeling of an end of season nothing to play for game. I mean Ketts done his best to avoid subbing youth players on for large parts of the season where our only option from the bench were youth players! Just thought it strange he started to use them in that match. Personally I'm just pretty annoyed he never gave the new boy a 10 minute run out. Moses parting the red sea and all that .... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 8 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said: It's been said before that Kettlewell would benefit massively from one of those 'Keep It Simple, Stupid' signs in his office and dugout. Get this framed and send it to him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsjoe_mfc Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 19 hours ago, ropy said: It is strange, he messed about against Celtic and we lost goals, he did the same yesterday and it blunted our attack. Against Celtic, I think he got the substitutions wrong. Against Aberdeen, I think it was mainly the starting lineup. If you ever have to sub two of your centre backs without injury or change of formation, you have to take a long hard look at why you selected that team in the first place. Blaney had to play at Ibrox because Gent was ill and Devine was ineligible. If him playing on Saturday had us arguably with five centre backs in a row against Aberdeen at home, then Ketts should have had the balls to bring him in and say "well done at Ibrox, but you're on the bench today". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casagolda Posted March 18 Author Share Posted March 18 (edited) 15 hours ago, JamesP_81 said: I get the shout about throwing youngsters into a competitive game instead of a game that's all but over , but at the time I definitely felt like the subs had the feeling of an end of season nothing to play for game. I mean Ketts done his best to avoid subbing youth players on for large parts of the season where our only option from the bench were youth players! Just thought it strange he started to use them in that match. Personally I'm just pretty annoyed he never gave the new boy a 10 minute run out. Moses parting the red sea and all that .... I get that but see to be fair to Kettlewell, what other options did really have? Oli Shaw- A striker that hasn’t scored for either of his last 2 clubs. His last competitive goal was for Kilmarnock against Stenhousemuir in July 2022. Davor- A tidy and combative midfielder who I like but not exactly going to give you any guile or goal threat. At 26 you could count his senior career goals/assists on one hand. Moses- Probably who we all wanted to see but in reality he hasn’t played competitively as far as I can see since November and has had about a weeks training since. If Obika hadn’t been crocked(again) I’m not sure he’d have even made the bench. So chucking on Ferrie, a regular scorer at youth level and Wells, someone with a bit of creativity was worth a punt imho. It didn’t really work but to be honest I’m not sure the result would’ve really been any different if Davor and Oli Shaw had been thrown on instead. As it is, it would have at least been a decent learning experience for the youngsters and there could be some long term benefits. Hopefully we see some more of them before the season is out. Edited March 18 by Casagolda 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsjoe_mfc Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Casagolda said: I get that but see to be fair to Kettlewell, what other options did really have? Oli Shaw- A striker that hasn’t scored for either of his last 2 clubs. His last competitive goal was for Kilmarnock against Stenhousemuir in July 2022. Davor- A tidy and combative midfielder who I like but not exactly going to give you any guile or creativity. At 26 you could count his senior career goals/assists on one hand. Moses- Probably who we all wanted to see but in reality he hasn’t played competitively as far as I can see since November and has had about a weeks training since. If Obika hadn’t been crocked(again) I’m not sure he’d have even made the bench. So chucking on Ferrie, a regular scorer at youth level and Wells, someone with a bit of creativity was worth a punt imho. It didn’t really work but to be honest I’m not sure the result would’ve really been any different if Davor and Oli Shaw had been thrown on instead. As it is, it would have at least been a decent learning experience for the youngsters and there could be some long term benefits. Hopefully we see some more of them before the season is out. To play devil's advocate to your points, if Miller had ran his race on Saturday, I would have sooner brought Davor on for him in a straight swap. I'd rather have had the league's player of the month higher up the pitch in attacking positions, than a rookie. I'd also then sooner have a player used to playing as a sitting midfielder there, rather than one whose best attributes certainly don't lie there. It's quite clear we are never going to change our shape, so I'm an advocate of replacing a sitting midfielder with a sitting midfielder, a wing back with a wing back, etc etc. Edited March 18 by crazylegsjoe_mfc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casagolda Posted March 18 Author Share Posted March 18 (edited) 19 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said: To play devil's advocate to your points, if Miller had ran his race on Saturday, I would have sooner brought Davor on for him in a straight swap. I'd rather have had the league's player of the month higher up the pitch in attacking positions, than a rookie. I'd also then sooner have a player used to playing as a sitting midfielder there, rather than one whose best attributes certainly don't lie there. It's quite clear we are never going to change our shape, so I'm an advocate of replacing a sitting midfielder with a sitting midfielder, a wing back with a wing back, etc etc. Fair does. Like I say, I’m not saying he was necessarily right or wrong to do what he did but I could I understand it. We were flat on Saturday and time was running out. Sometimes a youngster who’s fearless might do something to provide a spark or provide an injection of energy. I thought it was worth a punt looking at what he had available to him and I’d never criticise a Motherwell manager for being willing to give academy players an opportunity. Let’s face it it’s not the first time his subs have baffled the support this season and I doubt it’ll be the last. And of course had he not got his starting 11 badly wrong, we probably wouldn’t even be having this discussion. Edited March 18 by Casagolda 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillips455 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 After having some time to let the game and result sink in, I feel less bad about it but still annoyed at some of the outcomes. The goal was terrible defensively. I think there were 5 or 6 players in the box who both allowed the first strike and then the second. Defending has been out achillies heel this season but even that was worse than normal. Also it was Aberdeens First shot on target (atleast according to BBC Scotland). We didn't give up but man, we're we lacking in imagination and movement. Far too many times where there was a run on, we take 2 to 3 more touches the pass the ball sidewards or back. The last 10 minutes were awful as we just stopped going foraed for long spells. I just don't get how a team who put in the performance against rangers performed this poorly at home to Aberdeen. I know the changes were partially to blame but there were subs made at half time and we really should have adapted. The goal and penalty claim really don't matter. Whilst I may wish they were counted/given, we needed to be a lot better throughout the game. Hopefully 2 weeks away won't cause the same issues when we play St Mirren at Home on the 30th. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handsome_Devil Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, Phillips455 said: I just don't get how a team who put in the performance against rangers performed this poorly at home to Aberdeen. I know the changes were partially to blame but there were subs made at half time and we really should have adapted. Perhaps it's just me but I really don't think we were *that* bad. Good absolutely not but we still made what, six or seven decent chances, had a goal disallowed and a penalty denied. And that despite picking a stupid team. Draw that 1-1 as we should have done and quite frankly that game would have been forgotten by all concerned by Saturday evening. There were people jumping off bridges at half time v Livingston and eyeing up the top six after Ibrox and I understood neither view. Robinson used to say he thought we were never as bad as some said when things were bad and never as good as some said when things were good. Wise words and perfectly fitting to our level now. We're on course to survive what was universally regarded as a tough season having cleared the deadwood and are on course to do so with, at worse, a minor operating loss. This season is heading for the 'job done, move on' tick virtually everyone would have settled for last summer. Any time I'm optimistic in spring rather than panicking over our immediate future I think things are ok overall. Edited March 18 by Handsome_Devil 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YassinMoutaouakil Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 Are they trying to be funny now? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurrayWell Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 15 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said: Are they trying to be funny now? Only now? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YassinMoutaouakil Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 30 minutes ago, MurrayWell said: Only now? Maybe I'm just used to the wanky motivational stuff but I haven't noticed them making puns after defeats before 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisGRAEME Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, YassinMoutaouakil said: Are they trying to be funny now? Come on man 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vietnam91 Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 Maybe it was felt "McLean is an inconsistent arsehole // Motherwell 0-1 Aberdeen" may have drawn an invite to Hampden for a meeting to discuss over coffee* (*no biscuits). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well fan for life Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 This is a big step in the right direction away from stuffing a camera in someone's coupon after we've just been battered. Good work from the media troops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busta Nut Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 This game every fortnight is baws 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsjoe_mfc Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) 11 hours ago, Casagolda said: Let’s face it it’s not the first time his subs have baffled the support this season and I doubt it’ll be the last. And of course had he not got his starting 11 badly wrong, we probably wouldn’t even be having this discussion. I've been baffled by his substitutions on multiple occasions myself, but bizarrely we would be 10 points worse off if it wasn't for goals and assists from substitutes he's made. That obviously requires lots of context and it's harder to capture data from subs which haven't worked, but I bet if ever questioned on his subs, he would have a 20 minute screed prepared on that. Incase anyone is interested the 10 points are: Hibernian 2-1 (H) - Mika scores and assists from bench (3 points) Kilmarnock 2-1 (H) - Paton scores winner from bench (2 points) Ross County 3-3 (H) - All three goals scored by subs - Mika, Wilkinson, Ross (1 point) St. Johnstone 2-2 (A) - Gent assists equaliser from bench (1 point) Celtic 1-1 (A) - Obika scores equaliser from bench (1 point) Dundee 3-3 (H) - Wilkinson scores from bench (1 point) St. Johnstone 1-1 (H) - Bair assists Mika from bench (1 point) Edited March 18 by crazylegsjoe_mfc 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.