Jim McLean's Ghost Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Just now, welldaft said: I which case sack the useless b*astard . In all seriousness I think it is accepted that the budget was cut for this season. I think I would be safe in assuming that all teams that are currently above us in the league will have a higher player wage bill. Look if we were actually as hard up for wages as people think we wouldn't be signing guys like Moses or Callan Elliot. They have money to spend at Fir Park and continue to do so. We spend roughly the same as similar teams. There is no huge difference between the wages we pay and what Killie and St Mirren are paying. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 14 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said: I think they'll have played together at Queen's Park and Partick Thistle before playing together with us. Fortunately, I don't see McGinn being a Hearts target to make it four. IIRC they played in the same Thistle team that was relegated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 13 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said: There is no huge difference between the wages we pay and what Killie and St Mirren are paying. I think there would be this season. We apparently tried to make Deas one of our highest earners and Killie more than doubled it. There's every chance our wage bill this season is higher than yours too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welldaft Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 19 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said: Look if we were actually as hard up for wages as people think we wouldn't be signing guys like Moses or Callan Elliot. They have money to spend at Fir Park and continue to do so. We spend roughly the same as similar teams. There is no huge difference between the wages we pay and what Killie and St Mirren are paying. I never said the difference would be great and certainly not between St Mirren, Killie and Dundee. But we certainly could not afford to pay £8k per week or however much Killie are paying for Van Veen. Then you look at the rest of their squad and their wage bill will be higher than ours. I probably should have just said that Kettlewell has us finished in higher positions than our corresponding wage budget v other teams. Killie and St Mirren will get Euro money. Killie will also probably continue to spend slightly more as they have someone willing to cover it. I expect St Mirren to come back to bottom 6 sooner than later especially if and when Robinson leaves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swello Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 The problem with wage figures that are based on real accounts is that by the time they are public, they are out of date and don't really tell us much about what is happening now. In any case, I struggle to believe that the difference between what Motherwell, St Mirren, Killie, Ross County & St Johnstone spend is enough to make any difference whatsoever - how it's spent (and who's managing the team) are what matters (and as Hibs, Aberdeen and Championship regulars Dundee Utd prove, this is the case where any non-OF team are involved if they get it badly enough wrong) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YassinMoutaouakil Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 (edited) 18 minutes ago, capt_oats said: IIRC they played in the same Thistle team that was relegated. I won a signed ball from this squad in a raffle at my works Christmas night out and ended up keeping it for whatever reason. I'm quite enjoying it turning from a worthless piece of Thistle memorabilia (given they ended up going down) over the years into a very niche Motherwell one for fans of Spittal, McGinn, Sammon and Lawleff. Edited May 12 by YassinMoutaouakil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handsome_Devil Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 3 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: I think there would be this season. We apparently tried to make Deas one of our highest earners and Killie more than doubled it. There's every chance our wage bill this season is higher than yours too. I'd also be surprised if Killie aren't higher than us this season. But it's worth remembering a fair whack of what will appear on the wage bill this season is paying off previous errors - unless by some miracle we got all those loan guys etc off the books in full. To which other clubs will rightly shrug 'whose fault is that then?' but SK will certainly not count in assessing 'his' budget and performance in comparison to others. Motherwell and St Johnstone might have the same wage bill as St Mirren this season (illustration purposes only, I've not looked :-)) but if they get nearly 100% of that contributing because they were solid last season while the other pair are at 80% because they had to write off last season's rubbish, it's a fair difference in practical terms regardless of what appears in the accounts. It's why us muddling through with SK this season (even if it had been bawhair tight in the end) was much preferable to two more sets of compensation and a January trolley dash to secure safety by a margin... It can quite easily turn out to be a false economy and escaping the consequences of a rescue mission can take an extra year or two. And it's why I'm cautiously hopeful we're due an upturn in the cycle...if we spend the 'extra' money wisely ofc! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 (edited) 29 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: I think there would be this season. We apparently tried to make Deas one of our highest earners and Killie more than doubled it. There's every chance our wage bill this season is higher than yours too. Agree that this year's accounts will be interesting in comparison but ultimately I think what has (quite obviously) happened with us this season is that Kettlewell has been told he needed to bring the wages:turnover ratio down to a level that our increasingly risk averse board were comfortable with. It seems that there was a view in the boardroom that previous managers had been, shall we say, indulged by erm, "previous employees". The upshot was backroom staff were cut, the Reserve team binned, certain media positions weren't replaced etc. I'm fairly sure that Weir said at the AGM that to bring things into check it was the equivalent of 6 players. Which is why we saw Kettlewell trebuchet-ing as many through the summer last year. I mean, going by the last accounts our turnover came in at £6.4m (up from £5.5m the previous accounting year) and our published staff costs were £5m (down from £5.23m the previous year). So wages to turnover would have been roughly 78.9% and the plan this season would have been to bring this down further to below the 70% that's generally accepted as being best practice. Completely agree that what we've seen is that there's been a divergence in terms of what we're reasonably *prepared* to pay compared with your Killie and the likes but I suppose what I'm saying is that I don't think that necessarily changes the amount we pay in a broad, general sense but rather there was a view at board level that we simply had too many players and that was needlessly inflating the budget to a level of wastage that was a problem in their eyes We saw inflated squads on a regular basis under Robinson, Alexander and for the short time he was in charge Hammell and Kettlewell's been asked to reign that in. Edited May 12 by capt_oats 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 1 minute ago, capt_oats said: Agree that this year's accounts will be interesting in comparison but ultimately I think what has (quite obviously) happened with us this season is that Kettlewell has been told he needed to bring the wages:turnover ratio down to a level that our increasingly risk averse board were comfortable with. It seems that previous managers had been, shall we say, indulged. The upshot was backroom staff were cut, the Reserve team binned, certain media positions weren't replaced etc. I'm fairly sure that Weir said at the AGM that to bring things into check it was the equivalent of 6 players. Which is why we saw Kettlewell trebuchet-ing as many through the summer last year. I mean, going by the last accounts our turnover came in at £6.4m (up from £5.5m the previous accounting year) and our published staff costs were £5m (down from £5.23m the previous year). So wages to turnover would have been roughly 78.9% and the plan this season would have been to bring this down further. Completely agree that what we've seen is that there's been a divergence in terms of what we're reasonably *prepared* to pay compared with your Killie and the likes but I suppose what I'm saying is that I don't think that necessarily changes the amount we pay in a broad, general sense but rather there was a view at board level that we simply had too many players and that was needlessly inflating the budget to a level of wastage that was a problem in the eyes of the board. We saw inflated squads on a regular basis under Robinson, Alexander and for the short time he was in charge Hammell. Yeah I know what you mean, as it's almost exactly where we were 12 months ago too. I think both clubs were on a similar path in the Summer and it'll be interesting to see where each club is in 3 years time. It's seen as a "reset" season for you I guess? Where things stabilise and new foundations are built, while we've sunk further into the whirlpool. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsjoe_mfc Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 It will be interesting when this season's accounts come out, just how reduced the budget has been. We have a significantly reduced number of players this season, we might just have cut numbers rather than weekly wage. Which to be honest, I'd be in favour of given how many extra we were carrying last season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handsome_Devil Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 13 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: It's seen as a "reset" season for you I guess? Where things stabilise and new foundations are built, while we've sunk further into the whirlpool. Can't speak for everyone obviously but I - and quite a few others from memory - basically said so last summer, yes. A little frustration creeps in when two of the middle three are shite which opens the door to Europe and we weren't there to challenge but personally I consider that the price for a three-manager season and January supermarket sweep. We were happy to sign the bill for 2023 survival knowing the likely knock-on effect for 2024, it's off to complain now. If last July you'd offered me comfortably safe (whether seventh or tenth) and a balanced budget to start 24/25 I'd have been entirely happy. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 43 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: I think there would be this season. We apparently tried to make Deas one of our highest earners and Killie more than doubled it. There's every chance our wage bill this season is higher than yours too. it would surprise me if St Johnstone were paying more than us. We had a large amount of dead wood to clear out and that costs money. One of the reasons for such large losses in the last two seasons has been the turnover of playing/coaching being turfed out. Do you really believe Killie are paying out twice as much as St Johnstone? Sounds like some Eric Nicholson chat. No doubt Killie are paying more in wages than Saintees but not that much. And they only signed Deas on a 2 year deal so if they pushed the boat out they didn't secure him for long. One reason we were not in the running for Van Veen was that we got knocked out the cup by Morton. We made an offer, which was probably more than fair but got outbid by Killie and St Mirren. Killie probably not feeling great about funding big Kev's semi retirement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsjoe_mfc Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 4 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said: One reason we were not in the running for Van Veen was that we got knocked out the cup by Morton. We made an offer, which was probably more than fair but got outbid by Killie and St Mirren. Killie probably not feeling great about funding big Kev's semi retirement. Didn't we get knocked out of the cup in February? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 3 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said: it would surprise me if St Johnstone were paying more than us. We had a large amount of dead wood to clear out and that costs money. One of the reasons for such large losses in the last two seasons has been the turnover of playing/coaching being turfed out. Do you really believe Killie are paying out twice as much as St Johnstone? Sounds like some Eric Nicholson chat. No doubt Killie are paying more in wages than Saintees but not that much. And they only signed Deas on a 2 year deal so if they pushed the boat out they didn't secure him for long. By most accounts we have folk like Nicky Clark on £2.8k a week, and Ali Crawford on ~£2k a week too. Even folk like McGowan and Carey are apparently on fortunes. You really shouldn't underestimate how bad Davidson was with that side of things. I think we're still paying part of a 6 figure fee spent on a player who never played for us and is now in the English 9th tier. I got told Deas was on around ~£4.5k a week and Kilie were willing to go higher if needed. Others are apparently on similar money. Bowie put money in to support McInnes as they, now rightly, suspected the league was going to be a mess and there was a genuine chance of top 3 and the millions that brings. They done it well but they have spent a lot. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 2 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said: Didn't we get knocked out of the cup in February? Oops yes. We haven't had a good cup run in either comp in a while though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Kirk Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 21 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: By most accounts we have folk like Nicky Clark on £2.8k a week, and Ali Crawford on ~£2k a week too. Even folk like McGowan and Carey are apparently on fortunes. You really shouldn't underestimate how bad Davidson was with that side of things. I think we're still paying part of a 6 figure fee spent on a player who never played for us and is now in the English 9th tier. I got told Deas was on around ~£4.5k a week and Kilie were willing to go higher if needed. Others are apparently on similar money. Bowie put money in to support McInnes as they, now rightly, suspected the league was going to be a mess and there was a genuine chance of top 3 and the millions that brings. They done it well but they have spent a lot. I’m sure I read somewhere that Ali Crawford is a Motherwell fan. I expect we will sign him on £200 a week and he will be the top scoring midfielder in the league 24/25. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 1 minute ago, Stevie Kirk said: I’m sure I read somewhere that Ali Crawford is a Motherwell fan. I expect we will sign him on £200 a week and he will be the top scoring midfielder in the league 24/25. Did he not score against you all the time for Hamilton? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazylegsjoe_mfc Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 6 minutes ago, Stevie Kirk said: I’m sure I read somewhere that Ali Crawford is a Motherwell fan. I expect we will sign him on £200 a week and he will be the top scoring midfielder in the league 24/25. I know he is from Carluke and I know a couple of his mates, who are Motherwell fans, but I can't offer any insight beyond that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 8 hours ago, Archie McSquackle said: I keep getting adverts on this site showing a man in rainbow striped pants and vest. Thankfully it now seems to have changed to Skoda. I’ve just seen the rainbow pants, not for me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said: Yeah I know what you mean, as it's almost exactly where we were 12 months ago too. I think both clubs were on a similar path in the Summer and it'll be interesting to see where each club is in 3 years time. It's seen as a "reset" season for you I guess? Where things stabilise and new foundations are built, while we've sunk further into the whirlpool. As others have said, without wanting to speak for anyone else, I think this is almost certainly the case. The whole CEO saga being a case in point - this entire season has been defined by the interim-ness of it all. On your point about your wage bill likely being higher than ours this year, I wouldn't be surprised about that either. Looking at the accounts for both clubs for 22/23 our staff costs were listed as £5,075,900 while yours were £4,754,902 = a difference of £320,998. Granted we employ more people than Saints (222 staff vs 161) but bearing in mind the season we're comparing we had (at points) 6 managerial and assistant staff on the payroll plus the bloat of Hammell's January trolley dash it's probably fair to say our costs were at a maximum. Clearly these are overall costs so it's a question of how the budget is split. IIRC the chat at our AGM was that it was 50/50 between playing budget and administrative staff (I know @StAndrew7 was also there and paying more attention than me). Either way playing budget and overall budget are two completely different things - this was brought up earlier in the season when folk were clutching their pearls about us having "spent more" in wages than Killie during the time we've been fan owned and the same people still bumped against this despite it being (correctly) pointed out that Killie aren't reporting the same costs as us so you can't make a direct 1:1 comparison (although it didn't stop certain people). Either way, over the summer we clearly shed a ton of excess which I'm not sure Saints did (you'll know better than me) while you've also added Levein and Kirk to the payroll with Maclean probably still in there somewhere plus from what I can tell you still have a pile of legacy signings tied to the club whereas a quick look at our movement between last summer and now is a genuine eye-opener (IMO). On the assumption that our turnover is around £6m this year (we've brought in £1m in player sales compared to £190k last season) then 70% of that would be around the £4.2m mark. While we maybe haven't quite got as low as that It wouldn't be a surprise if this has seen us trim the sort of spend needed to bring it to a level below where Saints have been this season. On 04/06/2023 at 23:41, capt_oats said: Goalkeepers: 1. Liam Kelly (27) - 2024 13. Aston Oxborough (25) - 2024 Defenders: 2. Stephen O'Donnell (31) - 2024 3. Georgie Gent (19) - 2024 - season loan from Blackburn Rovers 5. Bevis Mugabi (28) - 2024 15. Dan Casey (25) - 2025 16. Paul McGinn (32) - 2024 20. Shane Blaney (24) - 2025 21. Adam Devine (20) - 2024 - season loan from Rangers 22. Adam Montgomery (21) - 2023 - season loan from Celtic 29. Callan Elliot (24) - 2024 66. Calum Butcher (32) - 2024 Midfielders: 6. Barry Maguire (25) - 2024 7. Blair Spittal (27) - 2024 8. Callum Slattery (24) - 2024 11. Andy Halliday (32) - 2024 + 1 year 12. Harry Paton (25) - 2025 17. Davor Zdravkovski (25) - 2025 38. Lennon Miller (16) - 2026 39. Luca Ross (16) - 2025 Forwards: 9. Jon Obika (32) - 2024 + 1 year option 14. Thelonius Bair (23) - 2025 18. Oli Shaw (25) - 2024 - season loan from Barnsley 19. Sam Nicholson (29) - 2024 24. Moses Ebiye (26) - 2025 28. Jack Vale (22) - 2024 - season loan from Blackburn Rovers In 19/06/23 - Jon Obika (from Morecambe - free transfer) 04/07/23 - Conor Wilkinson (from Walsall - free transfer) 17/07/23 - Pape Souaré (from Morecambe - free transfer) 21/07/23 - Davor Zdravkovski (from AEL Limassol - free transfer) 01/08/23 - Thelonius Bair (from St Johnstone - free transfer) 22/01/24 - Callan Elliot (unattached - previously Wellington Phoenix - free transfer) 23/01/24 - Sam Nicholson (from Colorado Rapids - free transfer) 05/03/24 - Moses Ebiye (from Aalesund - free transfer) In (Loan) 03/08/23 - Mika Biereth (from Arsenal - season) 24/08/23 - Brodie Spencer (from Huddersfield Town - season) 31/08/23 - Oli Shaw (from Barnsley - season) 01/09/23 - Georgie Gent (from Blackburn Rovers - season) 15/01/24 - Adam Montgomery (from Celtic - season) 19/01/24 - Andy Haliday (from Hearts - season + 1 year permanent) 31/01/24 - Jack Vale (from Blackburn Rovers - season) 01/02/24 - Adam Devine (from Rangers - season) 01/02/24 - Jili Buyabu (from Sheffield United - season) 08/02/24 - Oli Shaw (from Barnsley - season) Out (Loan) 14/07/23 - Robbie Mahon (to Edinburgh City - season) 15/07/23 - Sam Campbell (to Annan Athletic - to January '24) 24/07/23 - Ross Tierney (to Walsall - season) 04/08/23 - Adam MacDonald (to Cowdenbeath - season) 18/08/23 - Barry Maguire (to Kidderminster Harriers - to January 24) 25/08/23 - Robbie Garcia (to Cowdenbeath - to January 24) 26/08/23 - Ricki Lamie (to Dundee - season) 29/09/23 - Mark Ferrie (to Stenhousemuir - to January 24) 29/09/23 - Ewan Wilson (to Stirling Albion - season - loan terminated 06/03/2024) 30/09/23 - Nathan McGinley (to Partick Thistle - to January 24) 22/12/23 - Matty Connelly (to East Kilbride - season) 03/01/24 - Brodie Spencer (to Huddersfield Town - loan recall option exercised) 11/01/24 - Arran Bone (to Gala Fairydean Rovers - season) 18/01/24 - Mika Biereth (to Arsenal - loan recall option exercised - loaned to Sturm Graz) 24/01/24 - Oli Shaw (to Barnsley - loan cancelled) 21/02/24 - Jili Buyabu (to Sheffield United - loan cancelled) 06/03/24 - Ewan Wilson (to Beith Juniors) Out 20/06/23 - Kevin Van Veen (to FC Groningen - undisclosed ) 22/06/23 - Dean Cornelius (to Harrogate Town - undisclosed) 24/07/23 - Riku Danzaki (to Western United - free) 25/07/23 - Max Johnston (to Sturm Graz - £300k - development compensation) 26/07/23 - Connor Shields (to Chennaiyin FC - free) 09/08/23 - Ali Gould (to Watford u21) 16/09/23 - Joe Efford (to PAS Giannina - free) 01/01/24 - Pape Souaré (contract expired) 03/01/24 - Conor Wilkinson (to Colchester United - undisclosed) 04/01/24 - Sam Campbell (contract expired) 11/01/24 - Robbie Mahon (to Dundalk - free) 23/01/24 - Nathan McGinley (released - mutual consent) Players confirmed departing club at end of contract: Jake Carroll Logan Dunachie (signed for Clyde) Daniel Hunter (signed for Broomhill) Kian Spiers (signed for Caledonian Braves) Jack Aitchison (signed for Exeter City) David Devine (signed for Alloa) Corey O'Donnell (signed for Broomhill) Max Johnston (signed for Sturm Graz) Sean Goss (signed for Asteras Tripoli) Mikael Mandron (signed for St Mirren) Loans expired: Stuart McKinstry (signed for Queens Park) James Furlong (sold to Hull City) Oli Crankshaw (signed for Altrincham) Jon Obika (signed for Motherwell) Contracted players released: Josh Morris Riku Danzaki (signed for Western United) Joe Efford (signed for PAS Giannina) Nathan McGinley Edited May 12 by capt_oats 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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