Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Busta Nut]

2 minutes ago, eliphas said:

You've got the contacts on the WS board - spill the info pal...

They tell me nothing tbf. I'm just going by what's said, been said and (not) been done previously.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, thisGRAEME said:

Same. This is the same as Hibs fans saying "Actually getting relegated and being in the Championship for three years was good!", because they won the Scottish cup.

I mean, they did, but that isn't because they were in the championship. It's not an either or. You can fix problems without having to go to Dumbarton twice a season, for example.

100%

Looking at what we do and presumably what we want to do including but not limited to; operating on a sustainable basis, providing the manager with a competitive player budget, meeting the vastly increased cost of our other activities including having a successful Woman’s Team and maintaining a fit for purpose Stadium, Training Ground and Academy facility...

Dunno man, maybe it's just me but I don't see how having a 'reset' in the Championship helps any of that in any way shape or form nor do I see how playing in the Championship makes us a better vehicle for the necessary investment that allows us to maintain that stuff.

So...let's not eh?

[YassinMoutaouakil]

...how much are we spending on the women's team?

[Allroy for Prez]

Without coming over all Joey Barton, if it eats into the first team budget significantly, I’d be ditching the women’s team completely. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Allroy for Prez

[Handsome_Devil]

18 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

...how much are we spending on the women's team?

It's not separated in the accounts (at least from a quick scroll on the phone so maybe I missed it) so outside the club we're just guessing.

Someone who has a better idea a) of running a football team, b) prices in Scotland will have a better guess than me ofc but I think we'll very easily hit mid five figures and could well be more depending on how you allocate costs internally.

Ofc they do bring in some income we wouldn't have otherwise so that's no comment on the P/L. 

As said before though, some things add value without bringing an immediate return... it'd be very hard to say it's not a necessary expense in the big picture.

[eliphas]

Most of this is me guessing other than a couple of bits I'd heard before.

But, the club is in a tricky position, not an absolutely terrible one where we are in danger of falling over or anything.

Moving forward I do believe from a cost perspective we are well set for any new funding initiative to feed in to and/or when a new chairman gets his hands on the reign. We've made a lot of big spends the recent years in regards manager mistakes,  pitch and stadium renovations. That 'era' of spending 'should' be at an end if we are smart. 

We aren't pleading mega poverty or posting mega ongoing losses. More that running a football club in the premier league is not a cheap thing to do and we need to do something different to keep it going and progress. That includes some different people to lead it. 

-We don't carry a big men's squad anymore.

-We don't carry a big back room/supporting  staff

-We don't carry a big operational day to day staff base

-We don't carry yearly pitch costs to the size they were anymore. 

-We do plough money into the stadium every season to keep it standing.

-We will have seen massive increases in energy like everyone else as well as inflation level wage rises.

-We do carry a womens team and fairly substantial youth academy. However I think quite rightly they wouldn't be touched 

It's all pretty positive to me, like I said earlier. I'd rather this was coming out and moves being made than not.

Everyone needs to get ready though and chill the f**k out when our new chairman follows in his dad's footsteps and becomes the second Mr Dickie to look after the club....everyone relax...ok...

[CoF]

I pay little attention to the inner workings of the club, can anyone explain what happened to the ‘transformative’ Turnbull money? 

[capt_oats]

15 hours ago, eliphas said:

Most of this is me guessing other than a couple of bits I'd heard before.

But, the club is in a tricky position, not an absolutely terrible one where we are in danger of falling over or anything.

Moving forward I do believe from a cost perspective we are well set for any new funding initiative to feed in to and/or when a new chairman gets his hands on the reign. We've made a lot of big spends the recent years in regards manager mistakes,  pitch and stadium renovations. That 'era' of spending 'should' be at an end if we are smart. 

We aren't pleading mega poverty or posting mega ongoing losses. More that running a football club in the premier league is not a cheap thing to do and we need to do something different to keep it going and progress. That includes some different people to lead it. 

-We don't carry a big men's squad anymore.

-We don't carry a big back room/supporting  staff

-We don't carry a big operational day to day staff base

-We don't carry yearly pitch costs to the size they were anymore. 

-We do plough money into the stadium every season to keep it standing.

-We will have seen massive increases in energy like everyone else as well as inflation level wage rises.

-We do carry a womens team and fairly substantial youth academy. However I think quite rightly they wouldn't be touched 

It's all pretty positive to me, like I said earlier. I'd rather this was coming out and moves being made than not.

Everyone needs to get ready though and chill the f**k out when our new chairman follows in his dad's footsteps and becomes the second Mr Dickie to look after the club....everyone relax...ok...

Just to throw this in, here's a list of our published financial figures going back to 2005/06:

05/06: £50,000
06/07: £7,000 
07/08: £380,000
08/09: (£704,000)
09/10: £18,884
10/11: £541,863
11/12: (£600,000)
12/13: (£184,500)
13/14: (£184,854)
14/15: (£1,150,000)
15/16: (£412,000)
16/17: (£104,000)
17/18: £1,720,000
18/19: (£436,000)
19/20: £346,590
20/21: £3,575,615
21/22: (£1,082,000) 

Cleary we know we're posting a loss again when this year's accounts are published but looking at this in a very basic way:

Profits: £6,639,952
Losses: (£4,857,354)

Net profit = £1,782,598

Our cash at hand at the close of the 22 accounts was £4,237,114 compared with £4,117,920 (2021).

Even allowing for the unforeseen additional work on the East Stand and the various Bad Decisions through the 18 months from Alexander signing that extension it seems unlikely that we'd be 'skint' in the true sense of the word.

Per the note in the Strategic Report:

Quote

Edited December 20, 2023 by capt_oats

[capt_oats]

38 minutes ago, CoF said:

I pay little attention to the inner workings of the club, can anyone explain what happened to the ‘transformative’ Turnbull money? 

See my post above. On the 31st May 2022 we had £4.2m in the bank - prior to the Turnbull sale our cash in the bank on 31st May 2020 was £1,207,609.

Edited December 19, 2023 by capt_oats

[one m in Motherwell]

I see Hibs are the latest club to be looking across the pond for investment - £6M mooted initially.  

Mental that someone would throw that kind of cash at a Scottish club outwith Rangers and Celtic, and as others have said the likelihood of someone getting bored and calling in their debts seems much higher with that kind of arrangement.  If we are actively seeking outside investment then you'd hope that finding a sustainable source is one of the key priorities.

[capt_oats]

Noticed Scott Burns QT'ing this and well...where to fucking start:

As previously mentioned the club had £4.2m in the bank per the last accounts vs £1.2m prior to the Turnbull sale so it suggests that the "transformative" money, in fact, hadn't actually been touched.

Similarly the Scottish Government grant was to assist clubs with costs related to lost revenue during the Pandemic.

Are we really taking shots at the club for like, using the loan money for the purpose it was intended?

It's also pretty fucking clear what we spent a chunk of that £2.9m (almost exactly the amount we received for Turnbull) on ie: the stadium refurbs and new pitch which has resulted in the long term benefit that we're now no longer chucking six figures at the upkeep of the park instead IIRC the maintenance costs are the low 5 figures..

Also, in comparing our staff costs with Killie doesn't necessarily mean we're comparing the same departments but it also feels a bit weird given Killie were relegated and played a season in the Championship during that time - not exactly a like for like comp.

On top of that if we're talking about our time as a fan owned club then we have a net profit of £4m+ in that time so....

As @Busta Nut mentioned yesterday McMahon saying we require "significant investment" is the most stating-the-fucking-obvious thing going especially in a league with the various city clubs receiving investment and 3rd place getting group stage football.

Have we squandered money? Absolutely. Show me a club in Scottish fitba' who fucking hasn't.

However, implying that the club have burned through £6m+ or whatever when they like...haven't is either disingenuous, misleading or simply bad faith tbh.

[MurrayWell]

Least Burns has tweeted something about Motherwell that's not "they should have given Nick Montgomery the job"... 

Did McCafferty not recently run for the Well Society board? Or was that a different fella? 

[Busta Nut]

29 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Noticed Scott Burns QT'ing this and well...where to fucking start:

As previously mentioned the club had £4.2m in the bank per the last accounts vs £1.2m prior to the Turnbull sale so it suggests that the "transformative" money, in fact, hadn't actually been touched.

Similarly the Scottish Government grant was to assist clubs with costs related to lost revenue during the Pandemic.

Are we really taking shots at the club for like, using the loan money for the purpose it was intended?

It's also pretty fucking clear what we spent a chunk of that £2.9m (almost exactly the amount we received for Turnbull) on ie: the stadium refurbs and new pitch which has resulted in the long term benefit that we're now no longer chucking six figures at the upkeep of the park instead IIRC the maintenance costs are the low 5 figures..

Also, in comparing our staff costs with Killie doesn't necessarily mean we're comparing the same departments but it also feels a bit weird given Killie were relegated and played a season in the Championship during that time - not exactly a like for like comp.

On top of that if we're talking about our time as a fan owned club then we have a net profit of £4m+ in that time so....

As @Busta Nut mentioned yesterday McMahon saying we require "significant investment" is the most stating-the-fucking-obvious thing going especially in a league with the various city clubs receiving investment and 3rd place getting group stage football.

Have we squandered money? Absolutely. Show me a club in Scottish fitba' who fucking hasn't.

However, implying that the club have burned through £6m+ or whatever when they like...haven't is either disingenuous, misleading or simply bad faith tbh.

You been reading our group chat? Spot on.

6 minutes ago, MurrayWell said:

Least Burns has tweeted something about Motherwell that's not "they should have given Nick Montgomery the job"... 

Did McCafferty not recently run for the Well Society board? Or was that a different fella? 

He did I think. His da used to be Chairman. I know Gav a wee bit and he's a nice guy.

[MurrayWell]

4 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

You been reading our group chat? Spot on.

He did I think. His da used to be Chairman. I know Gav a wee bit and he's a nice guy.

Cheers mate, the name just looked familiar from the recent elections and I wondered if it was indeed that guy. 

[capt_oats]

Just to the point of the comparison made with Killie.

They reported an average number of 144 employees for the 21/22 season by comparison we reported 209 however we list Youth Football/Academy etc whereas Killie don't so again...colour me fucking surprised that ours is a higher figure.

Kilmarnock FC 21/22

Motherwell FC 21/22

Edited December 20, 2023 by capt_oats

[Desp]

1 hour ago, Busta Nut said:

He did I think. His da used to be Chairman. I know Gav a wee bit and he's a nice guy.

You seem to know everyone that's involved with Motherwell in some way a wee bit.

#ITKBusta 

[Swello]

The Govt. Loan thing being presented as a problem is one of the things that I have most difficulty with. The terms of that loan are (from a commercial point of view) literally unbeatable - it would be impossible for us to get finance at that cost (doubly so due to our past admin). If the club didn't take that loan on, much bigger questions would have been asked as the Directors would have failed.

The way the loan is presented in the accounts is (for a non-accountant like me) very weird - but that doesn't change the facts.

 

[Handsome_Devil]

7 minutes ago, Swello said:

The Govt. Loan thing being presented as a problem is one of the things that I have most difficulty with. The terms of that loan are (from a commercial point of view) literally unbeatable - it would be impossible for us to get finance at that cost (doubly so due to our past admin). If the club didn't take that loan on, much bigger questions would have been asked as the Directors would have failed.

The way the loan is presented in the accounts is (for a non-accountant like me) very weird - but that doesn't change the facts.

 

That loan is literally free money, I think every club took it, funnily enough, because it's free money.

[santheman]

15 minutes ago, Swello said:

The Govt. Loan thing being presented as a problem is one of the things that I have most difficulty with. The terms of that loan are (from a commercial point of view) literally unbeatable - it would be impossible for us to get finance at that cost (doubly so due to our past admin). If the club didn't take that loan on, much bigger questions would have been asked as the Directors would have failed.

The way the loan is presented in the accounts is (for a non-accountant like me) very weird - but that doesn't change the facts.

 

Some folk online are suggesting it costs us 150k a year in Govt loan repayments.

Dont know the exact figure but it will be nowhere near that.

What I do know is that maintenance costs on the pitch are now roughly a fifth of what they used to be so the savings on that alone will more than cover any loan repayment costs.

Think a lot of people are jumping on a bandwagon that's not really going anywhere.

 

[Handsome_Devil]

3 minutes ago, santheman said:

Some folk online are suggesting it costs us 150k a year in Govt loan repayments.

I am shocked, shocked! to discover some people on the internet are wrong.