Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[well fan for life]

14 minutes ago, wellinwigan said:

Don't get the Tony Watt love in at all pretty meh imo. Looking outside the box i know he's had a stinker at Aberdeen but if  he was allowed to leave i would take a chance on Stevie May i think he would suit our style

[capt_oats]

It was interesting to hear Robinson reiterate the type of player we target when he was speaking post-match:

"We never buy the finished article it's either boys who aren't in teams elsewhere  or playing non-league or young boys and we have to get players who buy into that coaching strategy."

I mean, that should be clear enough to everyone by now but the "boys who aren't in teams elsewhere" is kind of borne out by your Hartley, Aldred, Dunne, Ciftci, Main and of course Conor Sammon.

I mentioned it in another thread but given we bloody love to go back in for a previous transfer target and the fact we've been missing a Tanner-a-like I wonder if we might be interested in rescuing Stefan Scougall from his Perth hell.

[dezz]

Don't get the Tony Watt love in at all pretty meh imo. Looking outside the box i know he's had a stinker at Aberdeen but if  he was allowed to leave i would take a chance on Stevie May i think he would suit our style

Not for me. We’ve enough strikers who run about a lot but don’t really offer a goal threat. We don’t need another (more expensive) one.

[Ron Aldo]

To be clear, I wasn't saying we should have signed Tony Watt. It was more of an example of who we could have looked at as an alternative to Sammon.

[well fan for life]

37 minutes ago, Ron Aldo said:

To be clear, I wasn't saying we should have signed Tony Watt. It was more of an example of who we could have looked at as an alternative to Sammon.

The Tony Watt bit I understood. I reckon if we replaced Ryan Bowman with Stevie May we'd just have replaced one striker who looks like he'll never score again in his life with another, hairier one.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

So you see, that's where the trouble began. That smile. That damn smile.

 

[capt_oats]

The only thing I'd say probably mitigates things a bit with Sammon is that he clearly wasn't our first choice. Off the top of my head we were linked with various strikers over summer; Simon Murray, Michael O'Halloran, the bold Nadir, yer man Gaffney thisGRAEME mentions (who scored twice for Salford this evening)...there may have been others.

If they've all patched us and we've ended up taking what we could get...I mean at least we didn't pay money for Simon Murray like.

In many ways us not signing Tony Watt is as much a missed opportunity for the media team as anything. Think of the fun they could have had with him...given their latest with Charlie Dunne. They'd be all over Watt To Watch and his twitch livestreams.

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by capt_oats

[YassinMoutaouakil]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/3548427/motherwell-chris-cadden-injury/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1543358434

Novembers can f**k off tbh

Edited November 27, 2018 by YassinMoutaouakil

[RandomGuy.]

15 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Similarly I seem to recall there was talk on here from the St Johnstone fans that they'd bumped up their budget this season and were dishing out six-figure salaries to a few players. I'm not sure exactly where that came from though. I could be wrong but I'm not sure we'd be inclined to be that spend-y for a player with Watt's erm...inconsistent history.

I think its a bit misleading considering how many first team players we signed this Summer.

We've had three players who you'd assume have had a large wage (Mannus, Millar, MacLean) due to their longevity and importance leave us in the Summer.

We also had not so cheap loanees in O'Halloran, then Willock and Williams. Keith Watson seemingly had a decent wage, and then there was Paul Paton.

We've replaced all that with Watt, Kennedy, Swanson, Wright and Callachan, plus another loaned. Wouldn't be stunned to find it was almost a straight swap in terms of wage.

The "six figure"wage that's brought up in here a lot, is to do with last seasons squad, and points more at the likes of Scougall it seems. Worth mentioning it was our chairman who brought it up, a certain chairman who's constantly trying to claim he hasn't short changed the manager in terms of budget since the cup win. I wouldn't read a huge amount into what he says about money in public.

Fwiw all these stattos on Twitter have Watt done as one of the highest xA players in the league just now, his lack of goals is obvious, but he's still hugely important to us, and a major reason why we actually look like a football team. The difference in our style when he's up front, and when we play Chris Kane up front, is incredible.

Edited November 28, 2018 by RandomGuy.

[Desp]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Fwiw all these stattos on Twitter have Watt down as one of the highest xA players in the league just now.

Get out, and don't come back.

[Swello]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Fwiw all these stattos on Twitter have Watt done as one of the highest xA players in the league just now, his lack of goals is obvious, but he's still hugely important to us, and a major reason why we actually look like a football team. The difference in our style when he's up front, and when we play Chris Kane up front, is incredible.

We've certainly got this type of player (Main on saturday is the perfect example) - but our problem this season (unlike almost any season from the last decade at least) is that we don't have someone who is doing the most important bit for strikers - actually scoring (I'm certainly hopeful about Johnson but he is still unproven at this stage despite scoring against Rangers and Aberdeen).

I totally get that forwards contribute more than goals - but our short term need is for the 15-odd goals a season that can be the difference between comfortable mid-table obscurity and brown trousers time.

[Luke92]

A wee bit off topic but relates to the overall recruitment piece. I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this but the P&B twitter account posted updated stats for the 18/19 season from http://globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS 2018.pdf

Premiership 1st Team Avg Annual Salary 18-19

Celtic £865,614
Rangers £466,556
Aberdeen £138,667
Hearts £111,600
Hibs £103,376
Dundee £62,833
Kilmarnock £62,816
St.Johnstone £48,630
Hamilton £47,879
Motherwell £47,342
St.Mirren £46,169
Livingston £34,882

There was similar stats posted last year but I was curious where St Mirren and Livingston factored in to things. There's two ways of looking at this, either we are being very prudent in our spending and we are overachieving. Or like me you are concerned about us offering similar wages to the likes of Hamilton Accies and St Johnstone who have a home gate of hee-haw. Clearly there is a number of factors to take into account here, probably most importantly sugar daddy v fan owned but regardless of these I don't think it is outwith the realms to expect us to spend more than we are currently.

Football isn't played on paper and all that but if you look at spend/wage figures they normally directly reflect the league position of a team. Livingston being the main exception to the rule here. To be clear I'm not in favour of us splurging loads of money on wages but I just question if we should continue to be this restricted with our wage expenditure. It's a fair argument to suggest that we could have spent money more wisely in the summer namely on the mediocre squad players we picked up but as some have pointed out our restrictive budget has probably seen us lose out on better quality players even to the likes of St Johnstone which is pretty eye opening.

Again, I understand the whole single benefactor v fan owned point. The likes of Accies have someone who can dip into his pocket if there is a player they really feel they need. I am not against the fan ownership model (far from it) I think its a good idea but in practice I am of the opinion we should be striving to offer closer to the level of wage that Dundee and Kilmarnock offer rather than the rest who let's be honest aren't established top league clubs like we are.

Main point here is we can't continue to expect to overachieve year after year when we have the 10th highest wage in the league.

[RandomGuy.]

Worth mentioning that "report" is a case of taking the total wage bill from accounts, and dividing it by how ever many first team players they reckon the club has.

That's as scientific as they get.

It also ignores bonuses.

[capt_oats]

As @RandomGuy. says you can't really read much into those numbers other than it's an average.

However as a general point, if our budget as it is is what's required to be sustainable then it is what it is IMO.

These are our proft/losses posted from the past ten years:

07/08: £380,000
08/09: -£704,000
09/10: - £18.884
10/11: £541,863
11/12: -£600,000
12/13: -£184,500
13/14: -£184,854
14/15: -£1,150,000 (LOL)
15/16 - -£412,000
16/17 - -£104,000

The takeaway there shouldn't really need pointed out. When we were being competitive and Dempster was running the show we were haemorrhaging money. That's hardly sustainable with a benefactor let alone as a fan-owned club. As such we're now in a position where (as far as I know) we budget for 10th and that's it. We've binned the budget for Top 6, player sales and cup runs and as such our budget and what we're able to play players will presumably be a direct reflection of that.

You can make any argument you want about how we choose to spend that budget but as far as the principle goes I'm absolutely fine with it.

Not only are we budgeting for 10th but it's worth remembering that we're paying back Boyle and Hutchison while we're doing it.

The AGM is next month so the accounts should be announced relatively soon but indications seem to be that we'll have posted a profit for 17/18 and are in a relatively sound cash position (I'd imagine the Kipré sale will mean that next year's figures should look alright too). So that's nice.

Edited November 29, 2018 by capt_oats

[Casagolda]

3 hours ago, Swello said:

We've certainly got this type of player (Main on saturday is the perfect example) - but our problem this season (unlike almost any season from the last decade at least) is that we don't have someone who is doing the most important bit for strikers - actually scoring (I'm certainly hopeful about Johnson but he is still unproven at this stage despite scoring against Rangers and Aberdeen).

I totally get that forwards contribute more than goals - but our short term need is for the 15-odd goals a season that can be the difference between comfortable mid-table obscurity and brown trousers time.

To be fair to Johnson he really is- He’s got 4 goals in 5 league starts, that’s more league goals than Main(12 starts) and Bowman(6 starts) have combined. I get what you’re saying though it’s a relatively small sample size, however I don’t think he could really be doing much more with the chances he’s had(6 goals in 6 starts in total).

Robinson obviously had his reasons, however breaking up the Main/Johnson partnership that worked a treat against Livi/Rangers/Dundee earlier in the season to try and shoehorn Bowman back in when he came back from his injury just didn’t seem necessary at all. Sensational volley at Tynecastle aside, big Herbalife’s not really done a great deal this season. Also like @well fan for life said, him jumping into every header elbows first is really starting to get on my tits now as well.

I reckon on balance he probably deserved another year after last season but I honestly can’t see Bowman being around next year. He just lacks the quality to be first choice at this level, a handshake and parting of the ways this summer would be best for all parties.

Also firmly on board the fire Sammon back to Gorgie as soon as possible shout. Would like to see Main stay but I have a feeling he sees us as a shop window and will be looking to move on this summer. 

[Swello]

2 hours ago, Luke92 said:

A wee bit off topic but relates to the overall recruitment piece. I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this but the P&B twitter account posted updated stats for the 18/19 season from http://globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS 2018.pdf

Premiership 1st Team Avg Annual Salary 18-19

Celtic £865,614
Rangers £466,556
Aberdeen £138,667
Hearts £111,600
Hibs £103,376
Dundee £62,833
Kilmarnock £62,816
St.Johnstone £48,630
Hamilton £47,879
Motherwell £47,342
St.Mirren £46,169
Livingston £34,882

 

I think the table above is only interesting in that it largely confirms the obvious - there are really 3 tranches of teams in the league - OF (with the caveat that Celtic are currently spending more than Rangers but you would expect that to close over time), Aberdeen/Hibs/Hearts, and the rest. By that, I mean that the OF can afford players in a wage bracket that no-one else can and the "City Clubs" can afford players in a bracket that "the rest" can't. 

I think it's too easy to look at that table and make excuses for us to finish in 10th - but the overall wage bill would be more instructive than the median. Hamilton and Motherwell could in theory both have the same average wage - but Motherwell could be paying 25 players that wage and Hamilton could be paying 18 players and that in theory would have an effect on the quality of each squad.

All that aside, where "the rest" are concerned, how you spend the money (and who you have managing the players that you are spending the money on) is always going to be far more important than 5 or 10 grand in median average wage as there simply is no gulf in quality.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

Financial results look good.

Nice to see we made a healthy profit from a successful season.

[capt_oats]

So, aye...about the strategy lads.

Spoiler

 

[welldaft]

Positive looking results.  I hope the club have been sensible enough to stick some away for a rainy day of which there are bound to be a few.   Good to see the comments about Directors reviewing financial state with a view to a sustainable future. Although one wonders if that statement is an admission we have splurged a lot of our new found wealth ! 

We have the Kipre transfer for this year and it would be good to know how much is left in terms of debt owed to Les Hutchison and John Boyle.

One thing is for sure we are unlikely to have a similar financial performance any time soon unless we sell 2 or 3 players for a couple of million combined. 

 

[Richie]

Encouraging results, only thing of concern is the significantly increased costs (+£1.35m ) although a lot of these appear to be one-off items(roof, scoreboard etc) or enforced by Project Brave criteria