Scottish Cup 2016/17

[cowdenbeath]

50 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

WOuld be good for Colville to get the game on somewhere in North Lanarkshire, be it Shotts, Wishaw or the like. What are the stadium criteria for the preliminaries these days? I went down to Newton Stewart's ground yesterday morning and the only thing that made their ground not a caged off artificial surface that you'd see anywhere was the green material on the fence to prevent free views, a burger van outside and two portaloos.

 

 

Surely if you got away that at Newton Stewart a place like Shotts would be more than capable of hosting the match. As you say a game in their native Lanarkshire might draw a crowd.

[cowdenbeath]

8-2 to Bonnyrigg.

[HibeeJibee]

Again no surprise. PR2 draw:

Leith Athletic v Coldstream
Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic v Burntisland Shipyard
Edusport / Colville v Girvan
Threave Rovers v Linlithgow Rose
Banks o'Dee v Golspie Sutherland


Glasgow University are in a hopeless position with the changes SFA have brought in. I feel sorry for them in some respects.

They'd only won 1 tie since 1969 as it was, but now have to play a month before term begins and against a top Junior side. Today was their first competitive match of 2016-17.

If cup payments are the same as before (i.e. £1,000 for a preliminary round exit) then you wonder if it's really worth them bothering.

Their licence gets some other payments, but renting Airdrie for all their games must be expensive when it's only needed for 0 or 1 matches a season.

[cowdenbeath]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

Again no surprise. PR2 draw:

Leith Athletic v Coldstream
Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic v Burntisland Shipyard
Edusport / Colville v Girvan
Threave Rovers v Linlithgow Rose
Banks o'Dee v Golspie Sutherland


Glasgow University are in a hopeless position with the changes SFA have brought in. I feel sorry for them in some respects.

They'd only won 1 tie since 1969 as it was, but now have to play a month before term begins and against a top Junior side. Today was their first competitive match of 2016-17.

If cup payments are the same as before (i.e. £1,000 for a preliminary round exit) then you wonder if it's really worth them bothering.

Their licence gets some other payments, but renting Airdrie for all their games must be expensive when it's only needed for 0 or 1 matches a season.

It must be more of a prestige in taking part thing rather than a money thing for them. Re the Airdrie thing I suppose it depends how much the rental is, it must be cheaper than what Airdrie pay, do people turn up for their league games?

[cmontheloknow]

3 hours ago, cowdenbeath said:

Surely if you got away that at Newton Stewart a place like Shotts would be more than capable of hosting the match. As you say a game in their native Lanarkshire might draw a crowd.

I'd still like to know why their own ground has been kyboshed - it's not exactly a public park!

[Hillonearth]

2 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Again no surprise. PR2 draw:

Leith Athletic v Coldstream
Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic v Burntisland Shipyard
Edusport / Colville v Girvan
Threave Rovers v Linlithgow Rose
Banks o'Dee v Golspie Sutherland


Glasgow University are in a hopeless position with the changes SFA have brought in. I feel sorry for them in some respects.

They'd only won 1 tie since 1969 as it was, but now have to play a month before term begins and against a top Junior side. Today was their first competitive match of 2016-17.

If cup payments are the same as before (i.e. £1,000 for a preliminary round exit) then you wonder if it's really worth them bothering.

Their licence gets some other payments, but renting Airdrie for all their games must be expensive when it's only needed for 0 or 1 matches a season.

Went along to this, and it summed up the farcical nature of the current licensing fetish for cup entry - Glasgow Uni are never in a month of Sundays going to make it through to the stage where they could potentially meet a team whose support couldn't be accommodated at the Science Park, especially now the additional rounds are in place.

I've seen them a few times playing at home in the Scottish against a couple of Highland League sides and Brechin, and the biggest crowd that showed up was maybe 300 which was easily marshalled by a couple of guys in high-vis and a roll of plastic fencing.

Instead you've got the ludicrous situation of a few hundred people - 90% plus supporting the away team - rattling around a 10,000 seat stadium once a year and literally no-one going to their "home" games which now take place 15 miles away from anyone who might otherwise follow them...

[cowdenbeath]

36 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

I'd still like to know why their own ground has been kyboshed - it's not exactly a public park!

Maybe some SFA blazer got blackballed for membership of the golf club.

[calmac25]

Again no surprise. PR2 draw:

Leith Athletic v Coldstream
Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic v Burntisland Shipyard
Edusport / Colville v Girvan
Threave Rovers v Linlithgow Rose
Banks o'Dee v Golspie Sutherland


Glasgow University are in a hopeless position with the changes SFA have brought in. I feel sorry for them in some respects.

They'd only won 1 tie since 1969 as it was, but now have to play a month before term begins and against a top Junior side. Today was their first competitive match of 2016-17.

If cup payments are the same as before (i.e. £1,000 for a preliminary round exit) then you wonder if it's really worth them bothering.

Their licence gets some other payments, but renting Airdrie for all their games must be expensive when it's only needed for 0 or 1 matches a season.

Is there not a £500 fee to enter the cup in the first place?

I suppose renting Airdrie for maybe £300-400 is cheaper then spending £100k on upgrading their own sports field. Even taking into account renting for the season whoever's in charge would need to be planning ahead by 10 to 20 years to think that garscube is worth doing up

[calmac25]

Does anyone know if Leith athletic can play at meadowbank? There's no real facilities there either

[HibeeJibee]

It wouldn't surprise me if Meadowbank 3G is suitable.

Criteria to host a tie is the same as when Stirling Uni played at Gannochy, LTHV at Saughton, or when various EOS / SOS clubs hosted ties before undertaking groundworks. Since 2007 only the Amateur qualifiers have had to move (Crichton would have but were drawn away and lost).

I wouldn't have thought it was much different to Newton Stewart.

If not they might just pop next door - Edinburgh City have no game. Edinburgh University and Spartans are away.

[cowdenbeath]

6 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

It wouldn't surprise me if Meadowbank 3G is suitable.

Criteria to host a tie is the same as when Stirling Uni played at Gannochy, LTHV at Saughton, or when various EOS / SOS clubs hosted ties before undertaking groundworks. Since 2007 only the Amateur qualifiers have had to move (Crichton would have but were drawn away and lost).

I wouldn't have thought it was much different to Newton Stewart.

If not they might just pop next door - Edinburgh City have no game. Edinburgh University and Spartans are away.

The Meadowbank 3G is a terrible place to watch a game if you get a crowd of more than 50 your struggling to get a decent view with that building at the bottom corner blocking the corner if your not at the barrier.

[Parkgatequeens]

Very poor from the Motherwell side, where were the wives, girlfriends and family for their big day? I've been involved in Sunday Amateur Cup games where we have taken two full buses to the away games.

[tarapoa]

The early rounds of this tournament seem to be getting more "exotic" by the year - soon we'll have teams from the hebridean islands getting in, which would be no bad thing.

This one from the weekend was curious to say the least.

Edusport Academy is a residential football academy for young French footballers, based in Scotland.

 

[Burnie_man]

17 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

Went along to this, and it summed up the farcical nature of the current licensing fetish for cup entry - Glasgow Uni are never in a month of Sundays going to make it through to the stage where they could potentially meet a team whose support couldn't be accommodated at the Science Park, especially now the additional rounds are in place.

I've seen them a few times playing at home in the Scottish against a couple of Highland League sides and Brechin, and the biggest crowd that showed up was maybe 300 which was easily marshalled by a couple of guys in high-vis and a roll of plastic fencing.

Instead you've got the ludicrous situation of a few hundred people - 90% plus supporting the away team - rattling around a 10,000 seat stadium once a year and literally no-one going to their "home" games which now take place 15 miles away from anyone who might otherwise follow them...

Spot on.  The licencing criteria is flawed, deeply flawed. To allow a club to designate a stadium that they may never use to get a licence is nonsense (Glasgow Uni). To allow a club to designate a stadium miles away from their base (Edusport) is also a nonsense.  30 people at the Edusport game but none of them actually supporting Edusport sums it up, however given they are not a proper football club it’s unsurprising.  For these early round ties, what is wrong with a roped off football pitch? they are hardly going to attract a sufficient crowd to provide any safety concerns. The Colville Park game should be played at their home ground, regardless of how basic it is, the crowd wont top 100.

 

Like many things the SFA are involved in, it needs a re-think. Over and above that they should be out and about encouraging clubs to become licenced and full SFA members, helping them meet the criteria, offering advice, but you hear nothing from Hampden unless you contact them, even then the help is minimal until you cough up the £2k joining fee. It’s almost as if they don’t want any more clubs applying.

[HibeeJibee]

Tbf, you're all over the place here Burnieman...

Glasgow University plays all their games at Airdrie, so they use it every fortnight. That is actually the point I was making - as they are looking so unlikely to win a tie part of you wonders why they don't rate playing at Garscube every week over getting into the Scottish Cup. Clubs can't designate a ground for Scottish Cup purposes only.

Edusport are a unique case and have presumably started using Annan due to all their SOSL opponents being based in Dumfries & Galloway - they don't have "a base" anyway, as they've 2 campuses. Plenty 'proper' clubs don't train at their home ground or even in their home town either - Berwick don't, the players only see Shielfield for matches the same as Edusport's players only see Annan for matches. You can't discriminate against them because they're French so if they meet the criteria they're as entitled to join as anyone else.

Criteria to host a tie is very minimal, little more than a roped-off park is acceptable - for whatever reason Harestanes and Colville don't meet it (last season the suggestion was Harestanes playing field was too open and a gate couldn't be taken). Gannochy, Saughton, Blairmount have all been used in recent seasons and the criteria are the same as when the pre-developed Coldstream, Wigtown and so on were in use. You're confusing the fact there are two ways of entering - qualifying/membership - and the latter requires a licensed ground.

Some of your criticisms are valid but nonetheless lets keep things accurate.


EDIT: Having checked the 2016-17 rules in the SFA website the criteria are still exactly the same as before.

Ability to take payment; wall/barrier/rope round pitch; changing rooms; car parking for opposition and match officials; access to 'refreshments' for opposition and match officials; and toilets and catering for supporters (which could be portaloos and a burger van).

You could argue whether access to food is a must for spectators but that aside everything seems fair enough.

[cowdenbeath]

Berwick players may not train in the town but Berwick are a proper club representing the town. Edusport don't represent anyone most Annan local's probably don't even know who they are.

There is a big difference.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

Tbf, you're all over the place here Burnieman...

Glasgow University plays all their games at Airdrie, so they use it every fortnight. That is actually the point I was making - as they are looking so unlikely to win a tie part of you wonders why they don't rate playing at Garscube every week over getting into the Scottish Cup. Clubs can't designate a ground for Scottish Cup purposes only.

Edusport are a unique case and have presumably started using Annan due to all their SOSL opponents being based in Dumfries & Galloway - they don't have "a base" anyway, as they've 2 campuses. Plenty 'proper' clubs don't train at their home ground or even in their home town either - Berwick don't, the players only see Shielfield for matches the same as Edusport's players only see Annan for matches. You can't discriminate against them because they're French so if they meet the criteria they're as entitled to join as anyone else.

Criteria to host a tie is very minimal, little more than a roped-off park is acceptable - for whatever reason Harestanes and Colville don't meet it (last season the suggestion was Harestanes playing field was too open and a gate couldn't be taken). Gannochy, Saughton, Blairmount have all been used in recent seasons and the criteria are the same as when the pre-developed Coldstream, Wigtown and so on were in use. You're confusing the fact there are two ways of entering - qualifying/membership - and the latter requires a licensed ground.

Some of your criticisms are valid but nonetheless lets keep things accurate.


EDIT: Having checked the 2016-17 rules in the SFA website the criteria are still exactly the same as before.

Ability to take payment; wall/barrier/rope round pitch; changing rooms; car parking for opposition and match officials; access to 'refreshments' for opposition and match officials; and toilets and catering for supporters (which could be portaloos and a burger van).

You could argue whether access to food is a must for spectators but that aside everything seems fair enough.

Fair enough, I wasn’t aware that Glasgow Uni played all their home games at Airdrie (some expense that…..), but the underlying point still stands as you pointed out, why they need to play there makes a mockery of the licencing system. It’s not as if the stadium is in their own back yard, and it’s not as if they need 10k seats. They’re an amateur club.

 

Edusport are a farce, their base is Glasgow, apparently they opened another “Academy” in Edinburgh, yet they play in Annan.  They are effectively an educational sports “course” for French students that have a licenced football team. They have no ground, they have no fans, and now apparently no actual base. In reality they have a set of strips, some cones and some students.  That’s a world away from being even remotely comparable to Berwick Rangers, yes they may be entitled to join because they tick the boxes, but it just highlights deep flaws in licencing.

 

Surely one of the main reasons for implementing licencing –and I appreciate it’s not all about the ground - is to encourage clubs to improve their own facilities, not to decamp to anywhere that will take them (Glasgow Uni, Edusport, BSC) that are effectively ready-made but owned by someone else, plenty of examples of clubs doing just that such as Edinburgh Uni.  Perhaps a criteria should be that the club should be the prime tenant of the ground, either through ownership or lease, before they can be licenced, and/or the ground is within the environs of the town/area they represent eg Stirling Uni sharing Stirling Albion.

 

As for criteria for hosting a game, I do understand that this is different from achieving a licence, and it appears basic enough. It could of course be the clubs themselves feel it’s too much hassle and it’s easier to pay eg. Benburb, £200 or whatever to hire their ground with all the required facilities in place.  However, again I’d question whether it all is really necessary for a crowd of 100 and a referee who are probably all more than used to basic public park facilities.

 

[lionel hutz]

Are Glasgow Uni ever going to get Garscube licensed, like Edinburgh did with Peffermill and Aberdeen could do with Hillhead.

[HibeeJibee]

1 hour ago, cowdenbeath said:

Berwick players may not train in the town but Berwick are a proper club representing the town. Edusport don't represent anyone most Annan local's probably don't even know who they are.

There is a big difference.

I'm not disputing that, but you can't stop them joining the SFA (and hence entering the Scottish Cup) because of it.

There are other clubs in membership who have few if any fans; other clubs who groundshare - in some cases quite a distance away from their community or previous home; and so on.

All that objectively distinguishes them is that they are French, and you can't exclude them because of that.

I don't see it as being as issue as it's just them, anyway - it's not like there are a dozen foreign academy teams clogging-up the early rounds of the competition.

They have done the same as any other can do under the current rules - fulfilled all the organisational, coaching and policy requirements and obtained a licensed ground. It's not something that sits entirely comfortably but I don't see how you could frame rules to exclude them.

[cowdenbeath]

25 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

I'm not disputing that, but you can't stop them joining the SFA (and hence entering the Scottish Cup) because of it.

There are other clubs in membership who have few if any fans; other clubs who groundshare - in some cases quite a distance away from their community or previous home; and so on.

All that objectively distinguishes them is that they are French, and you can't exclude them because of that.

I don't see it as being as issue as it's just them, anyway - it's not like there are a dozen foreign academy teams clogging-up the early rounds of the competition.

They have done the same as any other can do under the current rules - fulfilled all the organisational, coaching and policy requirements and obtained a licensed ground. It's not something that sits entirely comfortably but I don't see how you could frame rules to exclude them.

The fact that their French dosn't really come into it, I would say the same about a Scottish Academy without any support, you were trying to compare them with a club which as been established in a town for over 130 years with a solid fan base.

For what its worth I would also say its a farce that BSC "Glasgow" are allowed to continue in the Lowland League while playing in Alloa as clearly they got into the league as they were a Glasgow club and the LL was obviously desperate to have a presence in the city.

You can also say the same about Stirling Uni moving out of the city to play in Falkirk, not that far away but still not in the city their meant to be representing. 

Yes they fufill the rules and meet the criteria but it dosn't really say much about the rules.