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[Dons_1988]

4 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

Apart from anti- sectarian charities , the government and courts . Your sport on mate 

Sure, I can accept that there’s been enough of a movement that certain places recognise it as sectarian. 

The fact remains that I don’t believe for a second that if I referred to you as the ‘h word’ that you would feel I was attacking your commitment to the Protestant faith. 

[Forever_blueco]

5 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Sure, I can accept that there’s been enough of a movement that certain places recognise it as sectarian. 

The fact remains that I don’t believe for a second that if I referred to you as the ‘h word’ that you would feel I was attacking your commitment to the Protestant faith. 

I’m pretty sure I’ve covered this numerous times already on the thread  . I accept that for some it was just a name picked up for Rangers fans over the years and religion or background is not even registering in their use of it .

Edited September 6, 2021 by Forever_blueco

[G51]

18 minutes ago, S7C said:

I'm on holiday just now so I've missed the bulk of all this stuff, but I think it's sad that rather than claiming responsibility and addressing the problems at hand this has become (yet again) a massive exercise in whataboutery. Fans on social media are on the defensive like I've never seen before and you have clowns like The 4th Official pandering to them in an effort to make some extra Patreon cash.

"Aye, the club's media partner made disgusting and offensive comments, but what about these tweets from 15 years ago?! And Celtic are paedos."

It's toxic and it's pathetic and I really can't be bothered with it any more.

If we were going to ban every media outlet on the basis of offensive comments made by their contributors then Scottish football clubs would have to ban every single media organisation that currently covers the game.

 

[Dons_1988]

5 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

I’m pretty sure I’ve covered this numerous times already on the thread  . I accept that for some it was just a name picked up for Rangers fans over the years and religion or background is not even registering in their use of it .

That’s different, we’ve already established no one uses it with the motive of referring to your faith. 

The question is do you feel, as the victim of that abuse, that I’d be attacking your commitment to the Protestant faith?

[Forever_blueco]

51 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

That’s different, we’ve already established no one uses it with the motive of referring to your faith. 

The question is do you feel, as the victim of that abuse, that I’d be attacking your commitment to the Protestant faith?

From you ? No I wouldn’t 

when the green brigade display banners of it or if certain Celtic fans labelled me it then yes I would think there was something more to it 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Forever_blueco

[101]

9 hours ago, craigkillie said:

by that point he had already started his descent into what you see now

[wastecoatwilly]

20 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

That’s different, we’ve already established no one uses it with the motive of referring to your faith. 

The question is do you feel, as the victim of that abuse, that I’d be attacking your commitment to the Protestant faith?

For me it's more of being pigeon holed or labeled like a sheep shagger, the F word or the H word probably carries more to it.
The P word for the corner shop guy or the N word have been stopped, the F word and the H word is no different.

[wastecoatwilly]

1 minute ago, Drew Brees said:

Are you offended by the f word??

You never sung Roamin in the gloamin or paddy McCourts f***** army? 

No I'm not religious I don't carry that bag M8, I'm not Irish I'm a Scot,if you call me the F word it has no affect.
Paddy McCourts fecking army good luck with that M8.

[AJF]

18 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

Are you offended by the f word??

You never sung Roamin in the gloamin or paddy McCourts f***** army? 

It's not to do with the fact that some people may refer to themselves as an F, it changes it's meaning if someone else abuses them due to it.

For example, if someone states "I'm Black" then that is factual and there is no issue. But if someone else then brands them a Black B, then that is insulting someone based on a protected characteristic, in this instance their race, which is illegal.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

7 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

I’m just trying to work out why you’d want it banned when I’ve never known a single Celtic fan to be offended by it. Most embrace it  

I don't wish to answer on willy's behalf but I'm sure it's possible to not be personally offended by something, yet still wish to see it removed from use.

[gannonball]

32 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

Are you offended by the f word??

You never sung Roamin in the gloamin or paddy McCourts f***** army? 

I don’t think it’s sectarian personally. The ****** brotherhood also had protestants in it as well so I have never really had it as being synonymous with catholics.

[wastecoatwilly]

11 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

I’m just trying to work out why you’d want it banned when I’ve never known a single Celtic fan to be offended by it. Most embrace it  

I've got no problem with Celtic fans embracing the F word I don't see it as offensive but it depicts a certain race like the P word for the corner shop guy that's where the ignorance is plus the derogatory nature.

[AJF]

14 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

Only by adding the b. That’s what’s offensive. 
 

You can’t start banning words because adding ‘b*****d’ to the end makes them offensive. Should we ban the word baldy, or ginger, or dundonian etc. 

That's generally what the debate is about though, is people using terms in an offensive manner. When Rangers fans use the F word, Celtic fans use the H word, racists use the N word etc. it is not simply stating a fact - it's use is intended to be offensive by attacking a protected characteristic (in some instances - I accept H** is not always used attached to religion).

Insulting someone by calling them baldy, ginger or Dundonian while offensive, is not illegal because they are not protected characteristics.

[oneteaminglasgow]

9 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

If it’s not offensive? If it’s word Celtic fans use to describe themselves, like a badge of honour for some, then why remove it? 
 

I get it if rangers fans are offended by *** and some have deemed it sectarian then it should be banned as not to cause offence, but no one I’ve ever known has been offended by f*****. 

There’s loads of examples of a group of people using a word to describe themselves being ok, but other groups using it not being ok because of the different context in which it’s used. The N word, for one. Or queer, where LGBT+ people identifying as queer is obviously fine, but if I started calling someone a queer, then that’s not fine.

[Drew Brees]

3 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

I've got no problem with Celtic fans embracing the F word I don't see it as offensive but it depicts a certain race like the P word for the corner shop guy that's where the ignorance is plus the derogatory nature.

The ‘P’ word itself is racist, 

[wastecoatwilly]

2 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

The ‘P’ word itself is racist, 

If you think that then the F word is also racist.

[Henrik's tongue]

I call my wife a wee *** regularly. (not short for honey but cos she used to like the rangers)

 She honestly doesn’t give a f**k and she’s a wee proddie.

Case closed.

 

[FrankChickens1]

For me the key thing is that of all the words listed and debated as part of whataboutery in this thread, only one of the many offensive words listed concerns something which people chose to be. That is the 'h' word which describes people who chose to be Rangers fans.  

The recent events we have seen both online and on the streets of Glasgow are not some strange offshoot of the clubs support but are the manifestation of the club's core identity. The people marching through Glasgow or singing on buses quite literally are acting as Rangers have conditioned them to act. Although the club does the bare minimum to push back for PR reasons now, they have fostered and encouraged that behavior over decades. 

People who make the decision to be Rangers fans notwithstanding that deserve to be castigated, and I find it particularly offensive that people would try to equate the usage of a word which denotes that choice with those which are used to attack people for their inherent characteristics such as race, ethnicity (and in the Scottish historical context Irish Catholic is an ethnicity) or sexual preference, particularly where those characteristics relate to minorities.

The distinction I make above is entirely consistent with there being court judgments against people using the 'h' word, as despite Kincardine's misguided sophistry, which misses much of the relevant points entirely, there is in fact importance in the intent and meaning of the 'perpetrator'. Those individuals cautioned/charged for its use will have been deemed to have been using it for the religious connotation and not the disgusting election to be a Rangers fan. In such circumstances there being legal consequences is not altogether unreasonable, although I again think a direct equivalence between the majority and minority positions is very dangerous. This also, in my opinion, further explains Nil by Mouth's position, in addition to the points made previously about them making an effort to be balanced for the greater good.

I am also a little uneasy with some of Drew Brees' contentions for the same reason, which is not the same as saying they are necessarily wrong.

That said, Scottish fitba discourse would be in a much better position if people could just avoid the 'h' word altogether, given the evident complications which rightly or wrongly follow.  As the word should describe only Rangers fans and not any religious connotation, people could substitute it with, for example, 'dirty bigot b*****d' and obtain the same meaning.

I agree with most of what AJF has said, although I can sense there remains one point we disagree on.

 

 

[wastecoatwilly]

1 minute ago, Drew Brees said:

Nah, not buying it. The ‘P’ word masquerades as an abbreviation but has a history of hate.. Among many British Asians, the ‘P’ word is thought of as the pinnacle of language which restricted the lives of Asians parents and grandparents in the latter half of the 20th century in the uk. Never heard a bad word said about ******. 

Ill try to put it another way,not all Celtic fans are or have Irish connections so they can't be known by the F word,not all corner shop guys are known by the P word because they are from different countries.
Because you have a corner shop or wear a Celtic top the P and F words are your pigeon hole or label.
If you own a corner shop and your from India the P word is offensive just the same as being a Celtic fan that is not Irish, the xenophobic nature and the ignorance is the same.
See people for who they are not for who you want them to be.

[FrankChickens1]

12 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Ill try to put it another way,not all Celtic fans are or have Irish connections so they can't be known by the F word,not all corner shop guys are known by the P word because they are from different countries.
Because you have a corner shop or wear a Celtic top the P and F words are your pigeon hole or label.
If you own a corner shop and your from India the P word is offensive just the same as being a Celtic fan that is not Irish, the xenophobic nature and the ignorance is the same.
See people for who they are not for who you want them to be.

I completely agree with you that using the P word against, e.g. an Indian person is repugnant racism, but Celtic fans aren't a protected characteristic either. 

The problem with what we saw recently in Glasgow and (in my opinion from the outside) the F word in general is that it does not connotate celtic fans but rather does connotate the protected characteristic of historical minority ethno/religious/nationality, in stark contrast to all but the most desperate use of the H word. 

The H word should be dropped, but its usage is not the same as the others

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by FrankChickens1