Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Mr Heliums]

Of all the arguments against independence, I  find the one about defence being handled better in the union to be one of the most galling. Hasn't Britain been involved in more conflicts since WWII than anyone else in the western world? Do people genuinely think Britain is handling defence well simply because it has a f*ckton of nuclear warheads 12 miles from Glasgow? 

 

 

[SANTAN]

18 hours ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

You're not a fan of nationalism, but you would be more than happy to see the UK independent from the EU? 

Yeah i'd be content with that, I didn't vote to leave the EU though. Someone else said i'm a fan of British nationalism though which isn't true either. I'm quite a hippy with my line of thinking but I find patriotism a bit silly overall. I will be cheering on England at the World Cup though. 

[SweeperDee]

I lived in England for the past 7 months, worked at a pretty decent University and was called a jock by the natives pretty much everyday. Caused a fair few arguments amongst fellow staff members when I showed them the McCrone Report. Pretty sure I was accused of doctoring it as well. [emoji23]

[SANTAN]

18 hours ago, Brother Blades said:

Decent enough post & at least able to put your opinion across, falls off badly at the end with the SNPbad stuff, the SNP would IMO (in my opinion) splinter in the event of a positive vote for Indy.
Understand that you are at work & unable to properly participate in a debate at the moment.
Welcome to the politics forum.

Thanks. Yeah it wasn't a very thought out post to be honest just firing from the hip, I would be much more comfortable with the idea of Scotland gaining independence and then some other parties taking the reigns than I would with the thought of the SNP running an independent Scotland, similar to how i'm sure a lot of people voting for Brexit didn't want UKIP to run the country.  I appreciate they're a good party to fall behind if you're very keen on the idea of independence and at one point I viewed them as a good party to fall behind regardless of your views on independence but now sadly I look at them as a single issue party.

 

[SweeperDee]

Thanks. Yeah it wasn't a very thought out post to be honest just firing from the hip, I would be much more comfortable with the idea of Scotland gaining independence and then some other parties taking the reigns than I would with the thought of the SNP running an independent Scotland, similar to how i'm sure a lot of people voting for Brexit didn't want UKIP to run the country.  I appreciate they're a good party to fall behind if you're very keen on the idea of independence and at one point I viewed them as a good party to fall behind regardless of your views on independence but now sadly I look at them as a single issue party.
 

The SNP would splinter off in the eventuality that Scotland becomes an independent country. They probably won’t exist in their current guise.

[SANTAN]

19 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

 

I'd respond in detail if you hadn't tried to misrepresent every single point I made. Posters like yourself are the reason most with a differing opinion probably give up after a few attempts. 

[NotThePars]

The SNP would splinter off in the eventuality that Scotland becomes an independent country. They probably won’t exist in their current guise.

Maybe segments of the party would split but there’s mileage in being seen as THE successor party. I imagine if independence does happen there’ll be plenty of people that will balance their ideological beliefs versus their desire to stay in power. It would be interesting as hell in the first few years though as unionists and nationalists alike would have to work out where they would place themselves. I’d far rather that sort of chaos than the one we’re plunging ourselves into as part of a Brexit Britain.

[Brother Blades]

Yeah i'd be content with that, I didn't vote to leave the EU though. Someone else said i'm a fan of British nationalism though which isn't true either. I'm quite a hippy with my line of thinking but I find patriotism a bit silly overall. I will be cheering on England at the World Cup though. 

Why are you in favour of leaving the EU? Surely all the arguments you use against Scottish independence apply equally or in some cases more so when applied to the UK leaving Europe?

[Brother Blades]

Thanks. Yeah it wasn't a very thought out post to be honest just firing from the hip, I would be much more comfortable with the idea of Scotland gaining independence and then some other parties taking the reigns than I would with the thought of the SNP running an independent Scotland, similar to how i'm sure a lot of people voting for Brexit didn't want UKIP to run the country.  I appreciate they're a good party to fall behind if you're very keen on the idea of independence and at one point I viewed them as a good party to fall behind regardless of your views on independence but now sadly I look at them as a single issue party.
 

Scotland after independence would be an open playing field for all parties, indeed probably more representative of people’s wishes as I can’t comprehend a FPTP system in Scottish government elections.
As regards viewing the SNP as a single issue party, can you tell me what that single issue is?
The SNP have governed Scotland for an unprecedented length of time (with support from Greens this time round), so it stands to reason that they have policy on all devolved issues?
Also, independence has been spoken about less by the SNP than any unionist party since 2014.
What the Scottish Government HAVE done, is stand up for the interests of Scotland - their constituents!
This should be the case for any party in Holyrood, simply isn’t the case for Tories, Labour or Lib Dem’s.

[SANTAN]

15 hours ago, Mayor Wilkins III said:

This is an oddly regular stance tbh. People reel it out despite the utter clusterfuck that we're going into. None of these people want assurances for how the UK will look after Brexit, because their minds are already made up on independence. As far as I'm concerned, the lost cause types are exactly that. Lost causes. If the last couple of days still sees the same old pish getting reeled out then that's what they are.

Mastermind is a troll, but what he says there isn't uncommon.

To be fair on them a lot of them can probably remember a time when Britain wasn't in the European Union where as nobody has a recollection of Scotland without the rest of the UK.  That's understandably why people would have more concern as it's more of a "what if" in their minds. 

[git-intae-thum]

24 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Yeah i'd be content with that, I didn't vote to leave the EU though. Someone else said i'm a fan of British nationalism though which isn't true either. I'm quite a hippy with my line of thinking but I find patriotism a bit silly overall. I will be cheering on England at the World Cup though. 

I am always amazed the amount of unionists who have no comprehension and are in denial with regards to their own nationalism. 

Some like UKIP and the orange order types etc are aware. They are active and  overt nationalists. 

However I would suggest the vast majority of unionists are passive and subconcious in their nationalism. They are in denial of any labelling of nationalism. Their default position is the continuation of the British state, which by its very nature is a nationalist position to take.

[SANTAN]

12 hours ago, Grant228 said:

 

Please, explain to me very specifically how Scotland is better served within the current union when it comes to "defense". Seing as you can't fucking spell it, this should be a laugh. 

You seem a lovely guy.  As I've said I typed that up quickly at work, my work computer's default is on American English so I hadn't noticed, that doesn't mean I "can't fucking spell". There's no point in even attempting to converse with such an elite speller like yourself, I bow down to your superior knowledge. I'm sure your debating strategy will do you well in the future. 

[SANTAN]

2 hours ago, Antlion said:

They’re terrified of upsetting the electorate

Fixed that one for you. Corbyn is a Brexiteer at heart and he doesn't want to lose any more votes. 

[Antlion]

12 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

I am always amazed the amount of unionists who have no comprehension and are in denial with regards to their own nationalism. 

Some like UKIP and the orange order types etc are aware. They are active and  overt nationalists. 

However I would suggest the vast majority of unionists are passive and subconcious in their nationalism. They are in denial of any labelling of nationalism. Their default position is the continuation of the British state, which by its very nature is a nationalist position to take.

It’s pure exceptionalism. Their brand of nationalism is British, and therefore special - it’s not to be sullied by the type seen in inferior nations.

The phenomenon is even sociologically recognised as “banal nationalism”. 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Antlion

[Granny Danger]

17 minutes ago, Antlion said:

It’s pure exceptionalism. Their brand of nationalism is British, and therefore special - it’s not to be sullied by the type seen in inferior nations.

The phenomenon is even sociologically recognised as “banal nationalism”. 

Are you sure that word contains a ‘b’?

 

[SANTAN]

31 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

I am always amazed the amount of unionists who have no comprehension and are in denial with regards to their own nationalism. 

Some like UKIP and the orange order types etc are aware. They are active and  overt nationalists. 

However I would suggest the vast majority of unionists are passive and subconcious in their nationalism. They are in denial of any labelling of nationalism. Their default position is the continuation of the British state, which by its very nature is a nationalist position to take.

Why did you quote me to tell me this? I'm well aware of what nationalism is and what my own beliefs are. 

[SANTAN]

1 hour ago, Brother Blades said:

Why are you in favour of leaving the EU? Surely all the arguments you use against Scottish independence apply equally or in some cases more so when applied to the UK leaving Europe?

I voted Remain but I support democracy. 

[SANTAN]

2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

I think the problem here is that many people took what the SNP were saying would be their policy in an independent Scotland and equating it to what would actually happen in an independent Scotland. It's not how it works.

I'm sorry that you've received negativity for being English, that isn't acceptable. Can I ask though, do you think it's any different for a Scot (or Jock as he would be known) living/growing up in England? It seems that's more of a human problem than a Scottish one. I don't think I've ever seen the SNP talk down England or it's people - they've been vicious with their criticism of English MPs, which isn't really surprising given the contempt they show for us (telling Ian Blackford to consider suicide being the latest example).  "Welcome to Scotland" is very much the message from the SNP and you're in denial if you disgaree.

I'd like to know how you can say with certainty that living standards would drop in an independent Scotland. That seems a stretch considering we've been suffering Tory austerity for a decade and the SNP have actually put funds towards fighting the policies which are harming poor people in society. Transport would be better within the union?  Again, that's opinion and not fact. I can't agree on defence either, I don't understand why Scotland couldn't build an Army capable of protecting itself like any other similar sized nation.

If you think Sturgeon is underhand in spinning Remain votes as Yes votes, what would you describe the tactics of printing massive lies on a bus or having people with no actual power sign a "Vow" to the people of Scotland if they stayed in the Union?  Both sides are guilty of spinning things, the difference is that the SNP's promises of what could be achieved with independence have never been put to the test - the Vote No or Leave groups have had their chance and failed in every single aspect of what they told the people.

I am genuinely interested here, but what could the Yes side tell you that would convince you that it was the best way forward?  I see this line a lot from No voters but rarely do any of them clarify exactly what they're looking for from the Yes side.

I should add, I am not an SNP member and I've never voted for them, I do find some of the criticism of them flimsy though. Donald Dewar marches Scottish Labour out of parliament because he didn't think they were being taken seriously, everyone thinks he's a hero. SNP do the same and it's reported as childish. 

 

I'll respond in detail sometime after 6. (Just incase you had seen me replying to the mouth breathers and not responding to one of the rare decent posts)

Edited June 14, 2018 by Stormzy
CAN'T FUCKING SPELL

[git-intae-thum]

2 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Why did you quote me to tell me this? I'm well aware of what nationalism is and what my own beliefs are. 

Really... 

take a look at your "I am not a fan of British nationalism" post.

Then have a look at your previous dozen or so posts on this thread......and have a wee think.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I voted Remain but I support democracy. 

So if you support democracy you’ll understand that what is happening to Scotland is a Democratic outrage.