renton Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Just now, Detournement said: The Germans had four Panzer divisions and the Red Army had fought across Eastern Europe by being conservative and not extending their supply lines. And it's worth remembering that the Warsaw uprising wasn't something which just happened. It was a British idea supplied by the RAF and the USSR had already objected to it. It's not really a surprised that Stalin didn't react to support Churchill's operation after Churchill had spent years declining to open a second front. The Soviets had been anything but conservative, particularly in attack (they were brutally reckless with their own men's lives) and had just crushed an entire German Army group in operation Bagration. German defences were burst and struggling to hold it together. The City itself was held by an infantry division that was still being rebuilt from the last time it'd been savaged. Those armoured divisions were struggling to hold onto the Eastern backs of the vistula either side of the City, but the Soviets were always going to, and did push them back. The Germans subsequently did manage to rebuild their defences and hold on through the winter - at least on that front facing Germany itself. However, if the Russians had so deigned, they could've broken through into Warsaw easily at that point. They didn't, and who can blame them? The Soviets were stone cold and clear eyed about their war aims. They did not subscribe to Churchill's mantra that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Those involved in the Warsaw uprising were acting to further their interests of a sovereign Poland that could resist foreign influence after the war. This of course was antithetical to Soviet aims which was a massive bloc of countries under their direct or indirect control to form a buffer to the west. Why shouldn't they then sit on their hands and let the Germans do some useful work for them. Regarding the second front, Churchill declined a second front in France because his military advisers - principally Allan Brooke his chief soldier - told him it'd fail until they were ready, and Brooke was right on that. An attempted invasion of France was a disaster waiting to happen in '42, and probably '43 as well (and impossible after the allies committed to clearing the Mediterranean that year). On the other hand Churchill was in favour of opening a front in the Balkans, to press home the advantage after the successful invasion of Italy. The US, well George Marshall really, refused to support that option because their mindset was still get the job done and go home, which meant France as the shortest route to Germany. And the Soviets didn't want the Western Allies in Central Europe before they got there because it would impinge their territorial ambitions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 13 minutes ago, Detournement said: The Germans had four Panzer divisions and the Red Army had fought across Eastern Europe by being conservative and not extending their supply lines. And it's worth remembering that the Warsaw uprising wasn't something which just happened. It was a British idea supplied by the RAF and the USSR had already objected to it. It's not really a surprised that Stalin didn't react to support Churchill's operation after Churchill had spent years declining to open a second front was quite happy to see the Poles get slaughtered without having the bother of doing it himself this time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 The Russians were obviously aggressive but they didn't stretch their supply lines or go in for Nazi style blitz tactics. The uprising was a stupid idea destined to fail. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Detournement said: The Russians were obviously aggressive but they didn't stretch their supply lines or go in for Nazi style blitz tactics. The uprising was a stupid idea destined to fail. By the Summer of 1944 they were better at it than the Germans had ever been, and on the plains of Eastern Europe had optimal terrain (at least in the Summer) to execute it. Operation Bagration was probably the best example of Soviet offensive tactics: Achieve tactical surprise by misleading the Germans as to where the attack would go, driving large armoured formations miles in behind the defenders in large enveloping hooks. tactically the Soviets were a disaster, and prone to getting many, many of their soldiers killed unnecessarily, but when it came to the speedy advance of large formations at the operational level, they were unsurpassed. If nothing else, the Soviet reaction to the uprising showed exactly how necessary it had been to try and mount. It was the Poles last, best hope for trying to re-establish a truly sovereign state. It was probably doomed to fail, unless the Germans withdrew for whatever reason, but it was absolutely necessary to try something for their own sakes, lest they be dominated by the Russians post war, which of course they ultimately were. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 It was definitely the last hope for Polish landowners. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Detournement said: It was definitely the last hope for Polish landowners. And the Polish resistance who were rounded up and sent to the Gulags. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 All fascinating stuff. F*ck all to do with Brexit mind you... That’s what happens when people allow trolls to derail a discussion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Granny Danger said: All fascinating stuff. F*ck all to do with Brexit mind you... That’s what happens when people allow trolls to derail a discussion. Threads wander. If there was anything interesting to discuss regarding Brexit developments that'd be the topic of conversation. Nothing wrong with indulging whatever side topics come up in the mean time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Fascinating to read that Stalin could sometimes be a nice guy. That is definitely news to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Equally fascinating to learn that Stalin granted Finland independence in 1917. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 27 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: Equally fascinating to learn that Stalin granted Finland independence in 1917. You should enjoy this then https://www.marxists.org/history/ussr/government/1917/11/02.htm https://histdoc.net/history/stalin1917b.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Granny Danger said: All fascinating stuff. F*ck all to do with Brexit mind you... That’s what happens when people allow trolls to derail a discussion. Damn we'd nearly solved Brexit as well! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Fullerene said: Fascinating to read that Stalin could sometimes be a nice guy. That is definitely news to me. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 I think we are forgetting who bloody won the war. Parp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 2 hours ago, renton said: Threads wander. If there was anything interesting to discuss regarding Brexit developments that'd be the topic of conversation. Nothing wrong with indulging whatever side topics come up in the mean time. Good point. BTW, somebody has asked me to make carrot cake. No idea. Never made one in my life. Any suggestions welcome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 http://bit.ly/2F46OJa 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 55 minutes ago, Fullerene said: Good point. BTW, somebody has asked me to make carrot cake. No idea. Never made one in my life. Any suggestions welcome. https://www.bbc.com/food/recipes/classic_carrot_cake_08513 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Sanchez Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 hour ago, John Lambies Doos said: I think we are forgetting who bloody won the war. Parp The Russians 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Fullerene said: Good point. BTW, somebody has asked me to make carrot cake. No idea. Never made one in my life. Any suggestions welcome. Carrots will be one of the only foodstuffs available after Brexit. You will need to bake it over a wood fire though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernLights Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 'No deal' Brexit ferry contractors copy conditions from 'takeaway' website 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.