oldbitterandgrumpy Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 1 minute ago, welshbairn said: And our MPs are gutless. Just now, John Lambies Doos said: Anyone who voted No in 2014 has no right to complain about this brexit mess. No voters gave the Torys the mandate to continue pissing on Scotland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Heard part of PMQs today; Corbyn is chronic. He actually does have an alternative to May but seems incapable of getting his point over. When she asks what he would do differently he needs to say ‘Customs Union’ repeatedly. The backstop is a product of May’s red lines. A negotiation that included a Customs Union might not have been easy but would have been easier and could have avoided a backstop. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 Heard part of PMQs today; Corbyn is chronic. He actually does have an alternative to May but seems incapable of getting his point over. When she asks what he would do differently he needs to say ‘Customs Union’ repeatedly. The backstop is a product of May’s red lines. A negotiation that included a Customs Union might not have been easy but would have been easier and could have avoided a backstop. But how can 'a type of customs union' as he so eloquently puts it allow independent trade deals? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Mind that time we were a nation of craven lickspittles who voted to keep us in this farce of a union? Good times, that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: But how can 'a type of customs union' as he so eloquently puts it allow independent trade deals? Maybe it can’t, but that doesn’t mean it is not a credible position. It all comes back to exactly what people who voted ‘Leave’ were actually voting for and there is no concensus as to what that was/is. I will reiterate the point; the backstop is a product of May’s ‘red lines’. The only way it might be removed is if she changes them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 20 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: 31 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Heard part of PMQs today; Corbyn is chronic. He actually does have an alternative to May but seems incapable of getting his point over. When she asks what he would do differently he needs to say ‘Customs Union’ repeatedly. The backstop is a product of May’s red lines. A negotiation that included a Customs Union might not have been easy but would have been easier and could have avoided a backstop. But how can 'a type of customs union' as he so eloquently puts it allow independent trade deals? We probably couldn't. The EFTA countries are in the single market but for a few exceptions, but aren't in the customs union so they can negotiate their own trade deals with third parties, acting together. Turkey is maybe the closest to Corbyn's idea, but it's hard to tell without him indicating which of May's red lines he's prepared to soften. http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/eu-turkey-customs-union/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbitterandgrumpy Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Maybe it can’t, but that doesn’t mean it is not a credible position. It all comes back to exactly what people who voted ‘Leave’ were actually voting for and there is no concensus as to what that was/is. I will reiterate the point; the backstop is a product of May’s ‘red lines’. The only way it might be removed is if she changes them. They were voting to leave. They wanted the UK out of the EU. In a very condensed binary question they chose 'Leave'. However misinformed they were didn't really matter to them. . All that mattered was cutting any commitment to the EU. All sorts of austerity-fuelled hardship and Universal Credit f**k ups were going on at the time, but the magic wand needed to make this country great (and white) again was severing ties with Europe. I don't think their view has changed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Just now, Gaz said: Mind that time we were a nation of craven lickspittles who voted to keep us in this farce of a union? Good times, that. Wonderful days. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, oldbitterandgrumpy said: They were voting to leave. They wanted the UK out of the EU. In a very condensed binary question they chose 'Leave'. However misinformed they were didn't really matter to them. . All that mattered was cutting any commitment to the EU. All sorts of austerity-fuelled hardship and Universal Credit f**k ups were going on at the time, but the magic wand needed to make this country great (and white) again was severing ties with Europe. I don't think their view has changed. That's a very good point, the people who were misinformed (and there's lots) are still misinformed, they have an idea and irrespective of the facts they are extremely unlikely to change this notion of reality that they have in their heads. The sad fact is that society in general is ripe for exploitation and manipulation and rather than social media and connectivity assisting people with facts and knowledge it does in fact just assist those who wish to exploit. I've mentioned this on other threads but one of the curses of today is that people in general appear to be so entrenched and polarised in their views that they are unwilling or incapable of attempting to understand or appreciate anyone else's views which are not in tune with their own. Of course our politicians are just a cameo of what's the reality throughout society............ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) It will hurt the Irish more than it will hurt us. https://twitter.com/TomBoadle/status/1090604274080514053 https://news.sky.com/story/barclays-prepares-to-trigger-eur190bn-no-deal-brexit-plan-11622383 Edited January 30, 2019 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Tbf it's about to get even more difficult to rent a flat a reasonable flat in Dublin compared to London. And those pint prices. Ooft, forget it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 50 minutes ago, oldbitterandgrumpy said: They were voting to leave. They wanted the UK out of the EU. In a very condensed binary question they chose 'Leave'. However misinformed they were didn't really matter to them. . All that mattered was cutting any commitment to the EU. All sorts of austerity-fuelled hardship and Universal Credit f**k ups were going on at the time, but the magic wand needed to make this country great (and white) again was severing ties with Europe. I don't think their view has changed. Totally agree. No wonder you're oldbitterandgrumpy and supporting Clach probably doesn't help you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbitterandgrumpy Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 36 minutes ago, WATTOO said: That's a very good point, the people who were misinformed (and there's lots) are still misinformed, they have an idea and irrespective of the facts they are extremely unlikely to change this notion of reality that they have in their heads. The sad fact is that society in general is ripe for exploitation and manipulation and rather than social media and connectivity assisting people with facts and knowledge it does in fact just assist those who wish to exploit. I've mentioned this on other threads but one of the curses of today is that people in general appear to be so entrenched and polarised in their views that they are unwilling or incapable of attempting to understand or appreciate anyone else's views which are not in tune with their own. Of course our politicians are just a cameo of what's the reality throughout society............ Why should they even make an attempt? In the wonderful age of Social Media, they can, with a click of a mouse summon up as much support in favour of their views as they need. Thereby confirming to themselves that they are right. As for politicians, I suppose there is a need for them. But seriously, would you want any of them as your friend? God, it's so easy to be cynical, I really should get out more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyderspaceman Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Quote That's a very good point, the people who were misinformed (and there's lots) are still misinformed, they have an idea and irrespective of the facts they are extremely unlikely to change this notion of reality that they have in their heads. If the people commenting in the Express, Mail, Sun, Telegraph are real and not just 'Russian trollbots' then I genuinely despair. They chunter on about WTO , for example, without knowing what they are talking about. No-one seems interested in educating them. (except me ) Quote The sad fact is that society in general is ripe for exploitation and manipulation and rather than social media and connectivity assisting people with facts and knowledge it does in fact just assist those who wish to exploit. Always has been. That's why we live in a capitalist sytem. Social media should mean we are better informed but you're right, it has had the opposite effect. Quote I've mentioned this on other threads but one of the curses of today is that people in general appear to be so entrenched and polarised in their views that they are unwilling or incapable of attempting to understand or appreciate anyone else's views which are not in tune with their own. But what if the other 'views' sre just plain wrong , stupid , misinformed and daft? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 44 minutes ago, WATTOO said: That's a very good point, the people who were misinformed (and there's lots) are still misinformed, they have an idea and irrespective of the facts they are extremely unlikely to change this notion of reality that they have in their heads. The sad fact is that society in general is ripe for exploitation and manipulation and rather than social media and connectivity assisting people with facts and knowledge it does in fact just assist those who wish to exploit. I've mentioned this on other threads but one of the curses of today is that people in general appear to be so entrenched and polarised in their views that they are unwilling or incapable of attempting to understand or appreciate anyone else's views which are not in tune with their own. Of course our politicians are just a cameo of what's the reality throughout society............ In my experience people are happy to adopt an opinion from anyone on things where they previously had no opinion at all. Step 1: Start a rumour. "The goalkeeper for Caerphilly Wanderers is the worst goalkeeper in history" Step 2: Wait a few days and then ask questions. "What do you think of the goalkeeper for Caerphilly Wanderers." "Don't like him. I think he is crap." I suspect most leave voters had absolutely no opinion on the EU but if they are constantly told we should leave - then surprise, surprise, they soon decide it is a good idea too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 1 hour ago, oldbitterandgrumpy said: They were voting to leave. They wanted the UK out of the EU. In a very condensed binary question they chose 'Leave'. However misinformed they were didn't really matter to them. . All that mattered was cutting any commitment to the EU. All sorts of austerity-fuelled hardship and Universal Credit f**k ups were going on at the time, but the magic wand needed to make this country great (and white) again was severing ties with Europe. I don't think their view has changed. You’re entitled to your cynicism, it’s probably justified, but I get annoyed when politicians claim that they know what Leave voters voted for. They don’t. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbitterandgrumpy Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 10 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: Totally agree. No wonder you're oldbitterandgrumpy and supporting Clach probably doesn't help you. Supporting Clach keeps me sane. And at least I don't live in Burnley. You've got to put up with extreme Brexit shit every day. Good luck with that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 The media are complicit in this shit as well though. They've credulously reported on everything Leavers, and May's government, have claimed is possible to do or haven't interrogated the real consequences of what they're saying. Andrew Neil having a go at James Delingpole over the WTO rules is the first time I can recall a real critique of what Hard Brexiteers have been claiming will be fine to do for months. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyderspaceman Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 19 minutes ago, welshbairn said: It will hurt the Irish more than it will hurt us. The brexiters think it will hurt everyone more than them. "They need our tourists cash" "They need to sell us their cars" "They need us to buy their Champagne" "They need our military intelligence" etc, etc. What sort of an attitude is this? No, really, what is the psychological reason behind statements like this? I'm sure there is one but not being a psychologist, all I can think of is "scared shitless and whistling in the dark". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyderspaceman Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: You’re entitled to your cynicism, it’s probably justified, but I get annoyed when politicians claim that they know what Leave voters voted for. They don’t. It annoys me when leave voters claim to know what leave voters voted for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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