Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[DublinMagyar]

And barren

[WILLIEA]

1 hour ago, Baxter Parp said:

As one who has lived through before and after joining I can confirm that this is true.

[williemillersmoustache]

Britain 

EU’s Top Negotiator Says Brexit Talks Have Not Made ‘Sufficient Progress’

• EU chief negotiator says ‘far’ from making necessary progress
• Sterling extends decline vs dollar after Barnier’s comments

[Granny Danger]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

That appears to be the UK approach to these 'negotiations'.

 

[strichener]

8 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

That appears to be the UK approach to these 'negotiations'.

 

The intransigence appears to be on both sides of the table TBH.  You could quite easily change the UK to EU in the above statement and it would be just as valid.  It would appear to be more of a mexican standoff than negotiations.

[Granny Danger]

28 minutes ago, strichener said:

The intransigence appears to be on both sides of the table TBH.  You could quite easily change the UK to EU in the above statement and it would be just as valid.  It would appear to be more of a mexican standoff than negotiations.

Yes you could but the UK has consistently ignored the realpolitik of the situation in a bid to decieve the electorate.  From day one May and Davis have projected the position that their negotiating position was as strong as the EU's.  Only idiots would accept that as being the case.

 

[zidane's child]

18 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Yes you could but the UK has consistently ignored the realpolitik of the situation in a bid to decieve the electorate.  From day one May and Davis have projected the position that their negotiating position was as strong as the EU's.  Only idiots would accept that as being the case.

 

The EU aren't daft as the UK MSM make out. They know that the current Tory government will struggle to get Brexit through the Commons with their slim majority and this only made their negotiating position stronger.

Hopefully the EU hard ball tactics continue.

Edited August 31, 2017 by zidane's child

[WILLIEA]

Some Asian business guru has said that the UK should apologise to Japan.

Reason being that so many Japanese companies invested here on the back of Thatchers promise that we would be a gateway to the EU.

They see brexit as a betrayal of trust.

Good luck getting a trade deal

[ICTJohnboy]

The only hopeful outcome I can see in all this would be a vote of "no confidence" in the government when parliament reconvenes on September 5th. Another election would finish of this shower of incompetents for years - maybe even decades to come.

There should be a coalition party formed made up from all those who agree it's time to have a complete rethink on Brexit.

[strichener]

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Yes you could but the UK has consistently ignored the realpolitik of the situation in a bid to decieve the electorate.  From day one May and Davis have projected the position that their negotiating position was as strong as the EU's.  Only idiots would accept that as being the case.

 

Let's throw a hypothetical out there:

2019 - Scotland votes for Independence and the SNP announce a 2 year timescale.  The UK says no problemo we will start negotiating on items that are mutually beneficial after you have agreed to contribute to the UK's spending commitments.  So Scotland we expect you to contribute 14bln for Trident and 4bln for HS2 etc. etc. before we even discuss how we are going to implement independence in 2021.

I can imagine the rightful indignation towards the UK if this were to happen and quite rightly so.

Edited August 31, 2017 by strichener

[Jambomo]

The UK is trying to serve two masters at the moment and doing so is making them look completely amateurish and incompetent.

It's trying to appear reasonable and committed to negotiation with the EU, probably because they know that they can't really afford to completely f**k them off if they want any kind of European trade in the future. It's also trying to appease the right-wing, hard-brexiteers both in the party and with the public who vote for them, to keep their vote and to keep the party in power, because that's really their main priority above all.

The problem is that these are really two completely incompatible stances. You can't appear reasonable when you are incorrectly issuing letter to people threatening to deport them (a 'mistake' that has happened more than once) or stating that non-UK academics cannot be involved in the groups helping to shape Brexit policy. You can't state that the EU can "Go and whistle" for the money the UK owes and argue about the paper detailing it if you aren't prepared to produce your own paper showing what you think is correct and talking about it from there.

Of course the EU will know a lot if this is paper-talk designed to placate the Brexiteers but at some point there will be a time when the incompatibility of these ideas actually come together. When that happens nobody knows which way the UK government will go, if it will work with the EU properly or if it will completely withdraw and blame the EU for its failure to get a deal. The EU doesn't know, we don't know and how can you negotiate when you don't know what the other side wants or trust that it won't completely change its thinking the next day?

 

[Jambomo]

10 minutes ago, strichener said:

Let's throw a hypothetical out there:

2019 - Scotland votes for Independence and the SNP announce a 2 year timescale.  The UK says no problemo we will start negotiating on items that are mutually beneficial after you have agreed to contribute to the UK's spending commitments.  So Scotland we expect you to contribute 14bln for Trident and 4bln for HS2 etc. etc. before we even discuss how we are going to implement independence in 2021.

I can imagine the rightful indignation towards the UK if this were to happen and quite rightly so.

I'd expect them to respond with details of what they feel is the correct amounts and why, then negotiate from there.

[strichener]

7 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

I'd expect them to respond with details of what they feel is the correct amounts and why, then negotiate from there.

As the UK did with their paper on Citizens' rights.  How did the EU take that - they clearly stated that the UK must afford the EU citizens the same rights as the EU would give UK citizens.  So basically you must offer x because we are willing to offer x, that isn't negotiation, that is dictation. 

[williemillersmoustache]

19 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

I'd expect them to respond with details of what they feel is the correct amounts and why, then negotiate from there.

There would also be a clear mandate set out in a white paper for an iScot / rUK negotiation to work from.  There's no such thing here, there's no agreed or accepted mandate or plan so they wouldn't need to keep so many total zoomers on side in the process. 

Superficially @strichener has a point but delve millimeters below the surface and it's a bullshit comparison.

The EU have no idea what the UK want, or how they plan to achieve it and at the same time we're threatening to renege on previous, pre-referendum obligations.

[Jambomo]

12 minutes ago, strichener said:

As the UK did with their paper on Citizens' rights.  How did the EU take that - they clearly stated that the UK must afford the EU citizens the same rights as the EU would give UK citizens.  So basically you must offer x because we are willing to offer x, that isn't negotiation, that is dictation. 

That isn't a response the the money they claim that they owe the EU though. This is a different paper on a different area.

[strichener]

1 minute ago, Jambomo said:

That isn't a response the the money they claim that they owe the EU though. This is a different paper on a different area.

It is still one of the issues that the EU state must have progress made before they will consider discussing trade.  Therefore for the purposes of my post, it is the same so surely your previous response also applies.

Edited August 31, 2017 by strichener

[Jambomo]

4 minutes ago, strichener said:

It is still one of the issues that the EU state must have progress made before they will consider discussing trade.  Therefore for the purposes of my post, it is the same.

It isn't the same. If you are disagreeing with the proposal that the EU have made, my point is you go back with a proposal outlining what you feel is correct and fair with regards to their offer- then take it from there. You can't do that by talking about a different subject.

ETA: This article states that the EU have issued 9 position papers since the negotiations began and the UK have only responded to one, the Citizen's rights one you mentioned. How can we expect any progress if we don't engage with them?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/13/brexit-britons-rights-in-europe-must-not-surpass-rights-of-eu-citizens-in-uk

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Jambomo

[strichener]

10 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

It isn't the same. If you are disagreeing with the proposal that the EU have made, my point is you go back with a proposal outlining what you feel is correct and fair with regards to their offer- then take it from there. You can't do that by talking about a different subject.

 

Now I am confused.  The EU have stated the financial exit fee, Irish Border and Citizens' rights must have sufficient progress made on them before they will discuss trade.  Leaving aside the dictatorial way in which this has been played out, you stated that you would

41 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

I'd expect them to respond with details of what they feel is the correct amounts and why, then negotiate from there.

Surely the same process applies to the three areas that I have mentioned?  Specifically in terms of the third (citizens' rights), the UK have already attempted to do exactly what you suggest - they have responded with the details of what they think is the correct way to deal with the issue and have met with complete intransigence from the EU.

 

ETA: Just seen your edit.  The UK have also created position papers for more than just citizens rights.  https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/article-50-and-negotiations-with-the-eu#position-papers-

Edited August 31, 2017 by strichener

[vikingTON]

29 minutes ago, strichener said:

that isn't negotiation, that is dictation. 

It's almost as if the EU holds all the cards in the game and can therefore do whatever it wants.

But... but.. taking back control! 

[Granny Danger]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41111553

NHS launches £100m drive to recruit foreign GPs