The Official Former President Trump thread

[Granny Danger]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44486250

New York suing Trump foundation!  

This should be fun.

 

[Fullerene]

Right.  Name one nuclear power where the leader is so paranoid he has his half-brother assassinated?

Next.  Name one nuclear power where the leader is so paranoid he has his uncle assassinated?

Next.  Name one nuclear power where anyone who questions the decision of the leader will be sent to the gulag along with all his or her family including grandchildren?

Next.  Name one nuclear power where almost nobody in that country has any idea of what is happening in the rest of the world?

Maybe that might suggest why the rest of the world is concerned about that country and not just the USA.

[NotThePars]

Right.  Name one nuclear power where the leader is so paranoid he has his half-brother assassinated?
Next.  Name one nuclear power where the leader is so paranoid he has his uncle assassinated?
Next.  Name one nuclear power where anyone who questions the decision of the leader will be sent to the gulag along with all his or her family including grandchildren?
Next.  Name one nuclear power where almost nobody in that country has any idea of what is happening in the rest of the world?
Maybe that might suggest why the rest of the world is concerned about that country and not just the USA.

Even if points two and three are true (there’s debate over the validity of much of the claims acknowledged by even the Guardian) how does that justify the greater concern for the country that hasn’t dropped a nuclear bomb on another country and doesn’t frequently violate the sovereignty of at least 7 other countries on anywhere near as regular a basis with drone strikes.

Also lol at discussing paranoid leaders when Donald Trump is the literal fucking president.

[welshbairn]

44 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Right.  Name one nuclear power where the leader is so paranoid he has his half-brother assassinated?

Next.  Name one nuclear power where the leader is so paranoid he has his uncle assassinated?

Next.  Name one nuclear power where anyone who questions the decision of the leader will be sent to the gulag along with all his or her family including grandchildren?

Next.  Name one nuclear power where almost nobody in that country has any idea of what is happening in the rest of the world?

Maybe that might suggest why the rest of the world is concerned about that country and not just the USA.

We know next to nothing about top level power in NK, so to claim that the titular leader is responsible for all that is a jump. Some of the the SK news propaganda is on Iraqis throwing babies out of ventilators in Kuwait levels of hype. According to limited news, Kim sacked his heads of Army, Navy and Airforce a week or so ago, so perhaps he's asserting control against the nasty people. And he's got a lovely smile!

[NotThePars]

We know next to nothing about top level power in NK, so to claim that the titular leader is responsible for all that is a jump. Some of the the SK news propaganda is on Iraqis throwing babies out of ventilators in Kuwait levels of hype. According to limited news, Kim sacked his heads of Army, Navy and Airforce a week or so ago, so perhaps he's asserting control against the nasty people. And he's got a lovely smile!

It’s difficult to really establish exactly what life in North Korea is like. So much of the claims are unsubstantiated or solely cited by US propaganda outlets but the tankies online are ludicrously gullible at the same time. It’s laughable to suggest that North Korea are even a tenth as destructive on the world stage as the United States by any real metric IMO. Body count, coup attempts and successes, military reach, economic sanctions, co-opting of global bodies. Maybe on rhetoric? Idk.

[Fullerene]

4 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

 

It’s difficult to really establish exactly what life in North Korea is like. So much of the claims are unsubstantiated or solely cited by US propaganda outlets but the tankies online are ludicrously gullible at the same time. It’s laughable to suggest that North Korea are even a tenth as destructive on the world stage as the United States by any real metric IMO. Body count, coup attempts and successes, military reach, economic sanctions, co-opting of global bodies. Maybe on rhetoric? Idk.

 

According to Google, the USA has about 6,600 nuclear weapons - so yes you are right.  North Korea might have only have 15.

All the same, if they dropped one on Glasgow - would you say "hey - is that all you've got. 

[NotThePars]

According to Google, the USA has about 6,600 nuclear weapons - so yes you are right.  North Korea might have only have 15.
All the same, if they dropped one on Glasgow - would you say "hey - is that all you've got. 

North Korea dropping a nuke on Glasgow (or anywhere in Britain) is so unlikely it would be slaughtered for its lack of plausibility if it formed the basis of a Call of Duty title whereas there’s precedent for the USA dropping a nuclear bomb in the Far East and precedent for them bombing Korea into oblivion.

[Crawford]

I studied the Korean War at GCSE back when I was in secondary school and only ever heard of China's backing for the North. I have never heard of a Russian backing but surely having someone willing to "put it to the west" they would have been bouncing up and down all over that?

Or where they to pre occupied with the middle East at that time?

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, Crawford said:

I studied the Korean War at GCSE back when I was in secondary school and only ever heard of China's backing for the North. I have never heard of a Russian backing but surely having someone willing to "put it to the west" they would have been bouncing up and down all over that?

Or where they to pre occupied with the middle East at that time?

Might be apocryphal but there was supposed to be a meeting between Mao and Stalin during the Korean War. Mao was asking for help and explaining the huge numbers of casualties the Chinese were suffering and Stalin replied : plenty more where they're from. My, did they chuckle! I think they got some serious financial and military support from Russia after the war but it probably stopped when the Berlin Wall came down.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

After endless comparisons, of varying validity, between Trump and Hitler it’s quite refreshing to see him take on the Neville Chamberlain role

 

[dorlomin]

1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

Even if points two and three are true

 

If they are true it shows an extremely unstable regime. 

Quote

how does that justify the greater concern for the country that hasn’t dropped a nuclear bomb on another country

Because the US dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan after Japan had already launched attacks on China, French Indochina, Hong Kong, the Philippians, multiple Melanesian and Polynesian islands, Malaya, the Dutch East Indies, Burma\British India and had over run the formerly sovereign people of Korea and launched a failed expansionist war with the USSR. At the same time the US was landed with the feeding of hundreds of millions in western Europe and dealing with the bulk of the 30 million displaced persons there, had to deal with the catastrophic mess that was Germany and had a possible war with the Soviet Union to keep one eye on. It had a war in China that was killing thousands every day on going and smaller wars in SE Asia against Japan also on going while having to provide the overwhelming manpwer and death toll for the invasion of the Japanese home island. In the midst of a globe in chaos and the US having to do much of the heavy lifting  the US president chose to go nuclear on Japan to try to curtail that war. Not a situation one finds comparable to today for either the US or North Korea. 

Quote

and doesn’t frequently violate the sovereignty of at least 7 other countries

North Korea has been violating the sovereignty of Japan and the ROK for many decades. Your missing this point is in no way indicative of subtle support for another Leninist regime. 

Quote

Also lol at discussing paranoid leaders when Donald Trump 

Trump is an outlier. The regime in Pyongyang has been consistently batshit crazy. 

[dorlomin]

14 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

After endless comparisons, of varying validity, between Trump and Hitler it’s quite refreshing to see him cast himself as Neville Chamberlain

I have always felt the closest exemplar from modern history is Kaiser Wilhelm. 

[dorlomin]

1 hour ago, Crawford said:

I studied the Korean War at GCSE back when I was in secondary school and only ever heard of China's backing for the North. I have never heard of a Russian backing

Since neither China nor the DPRK was manufacturing MiG 15s or had a particularly big supply of T-34-85s, we can begin to assume that the USSR was keen on a DPRK victory. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_the_Korean_War

[RiG]

2 hours ago, Fullerene said:

Right.  Name one nuclear power where the leader is so paranoid he has his half-brother assassinated?

Next.  Name one nuclear power where the leader is so paranoid he has his uncle assassinated?

Next.  Name one nuclear power where anyone who questions the decision of the leader will be sent to the gulag along with all his or her family including grandchildren?

Next.  Name one nuclear power where almost nobody in that country has any idea of what is happening in the rest of the world?

Maybe that might suggest why the rest of the world is concerned about that country and not just the USA.

When you put it like that maybe Trump does have a point when he described Kim as a "very talented" man.

[JamieThomas]

We can argue this and that (and we normally do) but I'm categorically no having a country with a couple of Button Moon washing up liquid bottle rockets and a collapsed test bunker a "nuclear power".

All wee Kim's launches proved was that he really, really likes blowing up fish.

[Fullerene]

44 minutes ago, RiG said:

When you put it like that maybe Trump does have a point when he described Kim as a "very talented" man.

In some countries, the opposition to the government can be harassed, poisoned, imprisoned and even executed.
This opposition might be politicians, businessmen, journalists or anyone really.

Not surprisingly, in these countries a lot of people who do not want to be shot, choose to be compliant to whoever is in charge.
Most people elsewhere would describe these leaders as tyrants.

On the other hand, Donald Trump seems to regard them as tough, resilient and totally in control.  He seems to admire them.
"Very talented" - yeah.  That Kim Jong Un knows what needs to be done.

[madwullie]

1 hour ago, dorlomin said:

I have always felt the closest exemplar from modern history is Kaiser Wilhelm. 

Read a cracking article on just that topic.ghe other day. Very similar patterns of behaviour. I'll try to dig it out. 

The main point of the article was that he might have been a dangerous twat when in charge but it was them trying to sort out his aftermath that led to millions dying. Getting him out sadly wasn't the end game 

Edited June 14, 2018 by madwullie

[NotThePars]

12 minutes ago, dorlomin said:

If they are true it shows an extremely unstable regime. 

Because the US dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan after Japan had already launched attacks on China, French Indochina, Hong Kong, the Philippians, multiple Melanesian and Polynesian islands, Malaya, the Dutch East Indies, Burma\British India and had over run the formerly sovereign people of Korea and launched a failed expansionist war with the USSR. At the same time the US was landed with the feeding of hundreds of millions in western Europe and dealing with the bulk of the 30 million displaced persons there, had to deal with the catastrophic mess that was Germany and had a possible war with the Soviet Union to keep one eye on. It had a war in China that was killing thousands every day on going and smaller wars in SE Asia against Japan also on going while having to provide the overwhelming manpwer and death toll for the invasion of the Japanese home island. In the midst of a globe in chaos and the US having to do much of the heavy lifting  the US president chose to go nuclear on Japan to try to curtail that war. Not a situation one finds comparable to today for either the US or North Korea. 

North Korea has been violating the sovereignty of Japan and the ROK for many decades. Your missing this point is in no way indicative of subtle support for another Leninist regime. 

Trump is an outlier. The regime in Pyongyang has been consistently batshit crazy. 

 

It shows a repressive regime if it's true. They seem pretty stable all things considered.

The United States never seriously pursued an alternative to dropping the bomb either. This has been identified by historians such as Barton Bernstein who also point out that US policy on the A-Bomb was also motivated by a totally sensible need to justify their spending on the Manhattan Project as well as a desire to intimidate the Soviets with a clear showcase of their big new weapon's capabilities. We could even look at Truman who justified the bomb by saying that "when you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him like a beast" which seems fair to the citizens of Hiroshima or Nagasaki. 

So you have ROK and Japan for NK and you have Iran, Chile, Cuba, Nicaragua, Mexico, Russia, China, Syria, Guatemala, Vietnam, Indonesia, Lebanon, Iraq, Libya, Bolivia, Grenada, Somalia and Yemen as a small sample list of countries that the United States have violated the sovereignty of. Feels like a geopolitical equivalent of Germany 7-1 Brazil doesn't it? 

The Korean War saw the deaths of an estimated 20% of the Korean population, the dropping of more napalm on Korea than the entirety of the Pacific Theater in WW2 and the serious consideration (dropped after the successful Inchon landings and the knowledge that they'd already laid everything to waste) of dropping more nuclear bombs and radioactive waste on Korea. Taking that into the context of looking at the "consistently batshit crazy" regime in Pyongyang I think it's safe to say that their determination to become a nuclear state is actually a fair response to the United States given historical precedent and who maintenance of a powerful military presence on their border. The end of Saddam and Gaddafi who abandoned their WMD projects kinda also validates their point somewhat regardless of how you feel about them. Trump isn't an outlier either is he? He's the natural end point of a democracy which elected Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and two Bush's to the highest office. Even the Democrats like Clinton and Obama, regardless of how suave they came across, were extremely into destabilising and perpetuating the misery of other nations despite ever increasing global opposition towards them. Even if you're only looking in the context of Korea you have a president who promised to "totally destroy" North Korea, you have articles in the press calling for the bombing of North Korea with those famously precise conventional bombs and active senators such as Lindsey Graham who go on the news and call for the destruction of the Korean Peninsula. Sure seems like they've got nothing to worry about. 

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/13531

https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/how-korean-war-almost-went-nuclear-180955324/

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/01/08/its-time-to-bomb-north-korea/

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/376548-lindsey-graham-war-with-north-korea-would-be-worth-it-in-the-long-run

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-war-crime-north-korea-wont-forget/2015/03/20/fb525694-ce80-11e4-8c54-ffb5ba6f2f69_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.20bca3604076

[dorlomin]

5 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

e Korean War saw the deaths of an estimated 20% of the Korean population,

So the hard line Leninist reigme is to blame yes. 

Quote

The United States never seriously pursued an alternative to dropping the bomb either.

You seem to be an undergraduate sociology or history student just cutting and pasting the standard hard line far left\right response. id you read what I wrote? Why did you not respond to those points?  The world was a basket case and the US ha that plus a possible Soviet war on its hand and an invasion of the home island. 

Dont worry about details, you are a Marxist, and anyone who disputes details can be executed when you come to power. 

[NotThePars]

You seem to be an undergraduate sociology or history student just cutting and pasting the standard hard line far left\right response. id you read what I wrote? Why did you not respond to those points?  The world was a basket case and the US ha that plus a possible Soviet war on its hand and an invasion of the home island. 

Dont worry about details, you are a Marxist, and anyone who disputes details can be executed when you come to power. 

 

You seem to think an overwhelmingly destructive response is completely justified if someone else was the initial aggressor. A North Korean launched offensive deserves the total obliteration of their entire country, I assume? That’s the natural endpoint of your snide reply there but it doesn’t surprise me that you probably believe that.

 

“The world was a basket case” doesn’t excuse the single minded determination to launch an A-Bomb on two separate civilian targets. That you constantly claim the US were on the verge of war with the Soviets despite them still being war allies is just pure revisionism and your petty snipes and baseless conjecture doesn’t detract from that.

 

Also I’ve literally quoted a Stanford Professor and Harvard graduate’s opinion on American nuclear policy. Those noted hot beds of far left/ right ideology.