New clubs in the East of Scotland

[GordonS]

14 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

I’m not too sure community or how far we are from it is the genuine focus for some of the posters on here. Fact is we took a leap of faith 4 years ago and by the time the naesayers realised the SFA Pyramid was the only show in town.....

Well you can impute motives all you like, but in my case I'm saying exactly and only what I think.

[Jerry Macguire]

2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Nope. What I'm saying is they're putting ambition to be as high up the tree as possible ahead of the absolute basics, like playing in their community and creating some infrastructure.

As for "did that all by themselves"; actually no, Alloa Athletic built the ground over decades and BSC are just renting it. All BSC do for themselves is collect enough cash to rent the ground and pay a manager and players.

When Gretna's "ambition" caused them to be liquidated, at least there was a decent ground in the town around which a new club could be created. Kelty have spent hundreds of thousands on facilities that will last decades and will help them generate income. If BSC folded tomorrow there'd be nothing left but a pile of strips. 

FWIW what BSC do for kids is obviously great; it's just the men's football team that leaves me cold. If I were you I wouldn't let that bother me and I won't mention it again here.

As I said earlier Gordon it’s all about opinions. I don’t let any of it bother me and to be honest I enjoy the debate. I was away watching the U20s tonight and I’ll be at Broadwood tomorrow for our Scottish Cup tie tomorrow. Hoping we can get into the 3rd round for the first time in our very short history.

[Jerry Macguire]

10 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Well you can impute motives all you like, but in my case I'm saying exactly and only what I think.

And I respect your right to do so. 

[Vollyman]

What would happen if an EOS club gained promotion had owned their ground for decades but did not have a ground licence, would they be allowed to play away from their community at a ground that had a licence?

 

[GordonS]

14 minutes ago, Vollyman said:

What would happen if an EOS club gained promotion had owned their ground for decades but did not have a ground licence, would they be allowed to play away from their community at a ground that had a licence?

 

As I read the rules, maybe, but it could be tight. You have to be a licensed club to be promoted to the LL, and you can't be a licensed club unless your ground meets the entry level requirements. But you don't need to be licensed until the Completion Date, which is 30 June. I think you'd either need to move and get licensed before that date, or they'd need to alter the rules.

Where I'm not clear is that only licensed clubs are allowed into the promotion play-off in April, so presumably you'd need to have a licensed ground before then. 

The rules are here: http://slfl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Scottish-Lowland-Football-League-Rules-Version-8.pdf

[The Mantis]

9 hours ago, GordonS said:

As for "did that all by themselves"; actually no, Alloa Athletic built the ground over decades and BSC are just renting it. All BSC do for themselves is collect enough cash to rent the ground and pay a manager and players.

He's not referring to BSC here though.

[drs]

4 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

He's not referring to BSC here though.

Probably best not to interrupt his ranting!

[FairWeatherFan]

9 hours ago, GordonS said:

Nope. What I'm saying is they're putting ambition to be as high up the tree as possible ahead of the absolute basics, like playing in their community and creating some infrastructure.

I'd actually say it was the lowest tree possible. They'd been in youth football for a while and presumably involved in the likes of the SFA youth schemes. Gotten to a point where they could provide an adult side their obvious regional options were Junior, Amateur, Lowland League. I know which one I would of chosen.

 

[The Mantis]

On 17/10/2018 at 12:15, GordonS said:

I don't know the ins and outs of the politics of the LL but I'd hope WW are a valued member. To me they're more of a "real" club representing a community than the unis, Edufrance or BSC Alloa. You also have the finest collection of trees I've seen in or around a football ground!

I don't think the LL values WW at all, at least not any longer. Maybe I'd be the same in their situation, in their drive to increase the professionalism of the league. Back in the summer they invented a rule saying all midweek games had to be 1945 kick off. Effectively this meant that WW v Kelty could not be played at Ferguson Park, even though it could easily be played at say 7pm.

WW did everything possible to find another venue including the home of the former LL chairman, but nothing doing. The nearest licensed club who would accommodate them were Linlithgow, but I'll not embarrass them by revealing how much they wanted for a single use of their ground. Eventually the game was played at FP with an earlier kick off.

Also the LL embarrassed themselves last spring over the 'teamsheetgate' incident at Vale, when they harshly penalised WW without consulting their own rules. Outgoing WW secretary Andrew Renwick knew straight away that the sanction was wrong and the LL were made to look a bit silly at the Hampden appeal.

[cmontheloknow]

10 hours ago, GordonS said:

Unis - I agree, and I really enjoyed my visit to Edinburgh Uni recently. I wish more people went. But there's something missing when you play a team who have literally no fans, like HWU or Stirling Uni EOS.

BSC - I think playing more than an hour by public transport from a home community shouldn't be allowed for more than a year, or maybe longer when a new ground is being built. BSC are well outside that.

Edusport - I don't think there should be a rule against a club like that being in the league, I just prefer a team that represents a community. I wonder if they've ever linked up with the French consulate and tried to encourage a few French ex-pats to come along.

They now have more Scots than French in the team, at 1st team level anyway. They usually number 1-4 as French guys but 5+ and the subs are in the main Scots. In terms of game time of 90 mins + from their 12 matches this season:

1. Scott McLaughlin
2. David Sinclair
3. Maxime Oulaitoh (fr)
4. Solal-Pelmard-Bassi (fr)
5. Matt Flynn
6. Aiden Wilson
7. Jean-Guy Lucas (fr)
8. Liam Coogans
9. Raffi Krissian (fr)
10. Jordan Alexandre (fr)
11. Scott Ferguson
12. Marc Kelly
13. Alex Abadie (fr)
14. Mark McKenna
15. Ryan McCann
16. Gavin Stokes
17. Matthew Kerr

[lithgierose]

I don't think the LL values WW at all, at least not any longer. Maybe I'd be the same in their situation, in their drive to increase the professionalism of the league. Back in the summer they invented a rule saying all midweek games had to be 1945 kick off. Effectively this meant that WW v Kelty could not be played at Ferguson Park, even though it could easily be played at say 7pm.
WW did everything possible to find another venue including the home of the former LL chairman, but nothing doing. The nearest licensed club who would accommodate them were Linlithgow, but I'll not embarrass them by revealing how much they wanted for a single use of their ground. Eventually the game was played at FP with an earlier kick off.
Also the LL embarrassed themselves last spring over the 'teamsheetgate' incident at Vale, when they harshly penalised WW without consulting their own rules. Outgoing WW secretary Andrew Renwick knew straight away that the sanction was wrong and the LL were made to look a bit silly at the Hampden appeal.

Why would Linlithgow be embarrassed.how much have ww spent getting their park upto SFA standard.?

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'd actually say it was the lowest tree possible. They'd been in youth football for a while and presumably involved in the likes of the SFA youth schemes. Gotten to a point where they could provide an adult side their obvious regional options were Junior, Amateur, Lowland League. I know which one I would of chosen.

 

I don't understand how you could say the LL is the "lowest tree possible" when there's the SoS, EoS, Juniors or Amateurs. Bonnytoun, Inverkeithing HS and Gartcairn all have the same origin as BSC, they joined the SoS, EoS and the Juniors respectively. All play in their communities and have invested in their facilities. The LL was literally the highest point at which BSC could have joined.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, The Mantis said:

He's not referring to BSC here though.

Ah, just re-read it; he's blaming other clubs for joining lower than the LL? I don't understand that at all, but each to their own.

[FairWeatherFan]

34 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I don't understand how you could say the LL is the "lowest tree possible" when there's the SoS, EoS, Juniors or Amateurs. Bonnytoun, Inverkeithing HS and Gartcairn all have the same origin as BSC, they joined the SoS, EoS and the Juniors respectively. All play in their communities and have invested in their facilities. The LL was literally the highest point at which BSC could have joined.

Yet you overlook East Kilbride and Cumbernauld Colts.

Junior football and Amateur football is already very well catered for within Glasgow, what exactly would be the point in starting a new club at that level? You might as well just try and link up with an existing one.

A bit like East Kilbride they were looking to provide their community with a link into Senior football. The Lowland League had the stated aim of reaching 16 members and in 2014 only had 12. With no juniors interested, this left the East of Scotland and South of Scotland in a period of disintegration as members were chasing those 4 vacancies.

South of Scotland = 11 members, amateur in all but name. Well and truly outwith their geographic area.

East of Scotland = 20 teams but 4 of them are reserve sides and they are also split into 2 divisions. Outwith their geographic area. This is also the league with the most members chasing Lowland League membership (Edinburgh University, Civil Service Strollers and Hawick Royal Albert would all join).

The Lowland League was the only real and stable option for a club with a long term set of aims.

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by FairWeatherFan

[The Mantis]

1 hour ago, lithgierose said:

2 hours ago, The Mantis said:

I don't think the LL values WW at all, at least not any longer. Maybe I'd be the same in their situation, in their drive to increase the professionalism of the league. Back in the summer they invented a rule saying all midweek games had to be 1945 kick off. Effectively this meant that WW v Kelty could not be played at Ferguson Park, even though it could easily be played at say 7pm.
WW did everything possible to find another venue including the home of the former LL chairman, but nothing doing. The nearest licensed club who would accommodate them were Linlithgow, but I'll not embarrass them by revealing how much they wanted for a single use of their ground. Eventually the game was played at FP with an earlier kick off.
Also the LL embarrassed themselves last spring over the 'teamsheetgate' incident at Vale, when they harshly penalised WW without consulting their own rules. Outgoing WW secretary Andrew Renwick knew straight away that the sanction was wrong and the LL were made to look a bit silly at the Hampden appeal.

Why would Linlithgow be embarrassed.how much have ww spent getting their park upto SFA standard.?

WW have got an Entry Licence. Why is it relevant what it cost?

What do you consider a reasonable amount to use Prestonfield for a night?

[GordonS]

14 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Yet you overlook East Kilbride and Cumbernauld Colts.

Junior football and Amateur football is already very well catered for within Glasgow, what exactly would be the point in starting a new club at that level? You might as well just try and link up with an existing one.

A bit like East Kilbride they were looking to provide their community with a link into Senior football. The Lowland League had the stated aim of reaching 16 members and in 2014 only had 12. With no juniors interested, this left the East of Scotland and South of Scotland in a period of disintegration as members were chasing those 4 vacancies.

South of Scotland = 11 members, amateur in all but name. Well and truly outwith their geographic area.

East of Scotland = 20 teams but 4 of them are reserve sides and they are also split into 2 divisions. Outwith their geographic area. This is also the league with the most members chasing Lowland League membership (Edinburgh University, Civil Service Strollers and Hawick Royal Albert would all join).

The Lowland League was the only real and stable option for a club with a long term set of aims.

 

I didn't "overlook" anyone. Maybe my point isn't clear.

East Kilbride are a team called East Kilbride playing in East Kilbride. 

Cumbernauld Colts are a team with Cumbernauld in their name, playing in Cumbernauld.

As I've said several times now, my problem with BSC is that the put ambition over community. EK and Cumbernauld Colts are providing their community with a men's football club representing them (Cumbernauld Colts also have a women's team). BSC aren't. EK have their own ground and Cumbernauld Colts are arguably the most 'Cumbernauld' team playing at Broadwood. If BSC had a home in the west end of Glasgow, or in fact anywhere in Glasgow, I'd be wishing them well.

The idea of "catering for" seniors, juniors or amateurs doesn't make any sense to me. You don't say "oh, there's already a Junior team nearby, we'd better pick something else." You go for the grade and level that suits your level of development, your potential, your financial health, your ability to attract players. Ideally you'd go for the same grade as your neighbours, then you might get a derby.

The idea that the LL was the only place they could go is such obvious drivel, they could have joined the West Juniors like Gartcairn did, which is home to clubs bigger than most of those in the LL - and then they could have actually played their games somewhere their community could get to. Instead, they put the cart before the horse.

[drs]

Gartcairn is a terrible example - they play in a cage with no shelter or seats, the changing rooms are in the school next door and the paying public have to walk to the local sports centre to have a pish.

I'd take the BSC route of playing elsewhere over the Gartcairn route of playing in a ground that isn't fit for the paying public*** - hence why their Cup games have been moved. 

You seem to be insanely jealous that BSC are in the LL and are well planted there whilst the Wee Rose wont be seeing that level for a while yet, you need to switch off the internet and count to 10.

 

*** - cue one of their fans giving its the tired old "we've only been in existance for X years, you cant expect us to have the facilities" pish that they have been spouting for years.

Edited October 20, 2018 by drs

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I didn't "overlook" anyone. Maybe my point isn't clear.

East Kilbride are a team called East Kilbride playing in East Kilbride. 

Cumbernauld Colts are a team with Cumbernauld in their name, playing in Cumbernauld.

As I've said several times now, my problem with BSC is that the put ambition over community. EK and Cumbernauld Colts are providing their community with a men's football club representing them (Cumbernauld Colts also have a women's team). BSC aren't. EK have their own ground and Cumbernauld Colts are arguably the most 'Cumbernauld' team playing at Broadwood. If BSC had a home in the west end of Glasgow, or in fact anywhere in Glasgow, I'd be wishing them well.

The idea of "catering for" seniors, juniors or amateurs doesn't make any sense to me. You don't say "oh, there's already a Junior team nearby, we'd better pick something else." You go for the grade and level that suits your level of development, your potential, your financial health, your ability to attract players. Ideally you'd go for the same grade as your neighbours, then you might get a derby.

The idea that the LL was the only place they could go is such obvious drivel, they could have joined the West Juniors like Gartcairn did, which is home to clubs bigger than most of those in the LL - and then they could have actually played their games somewhere their community could get to. Instead, they put the cart before the horse.

BSC Glasgow created out of the Broomhill Sports Club based at Broomhill Primary School. Broomhill Primary to Maryhill FC is only a couple of miles away, basically on their doorstep. BSC Glasgow played at Maryhill for the 2014/15 and 2015/16 seasons. Two full seasons, they never imagined they would of been playing in Alloa.

And the reason they never went the Gartcairn route is the obvious answer, they never wanted to be a Junior Football club. If they wanted Junior football they could of simply linked up with Maryhill FC. Just like Cumbernauld Colts could of linked up with Cumbernauld United instead of creating a club of their own.

BSC Glasgow, Cumbernauld Colts, Bonnyton Thistle, Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts and now looking like Syngenta. All youth clubs that had existed in some form for quite sometime. Any one of them could of created a Junior side if they wanted, turns out the SJFA isn't that attractive from those that exist outside of it.

[Burnie_man]

I’m not too sure community or how far we are from it is the genuine focus for some of the posters on here. Fact is we took a leap of faith 4 years ago and by the time the naesayers realised the SFA Pyramid was the only show in town.....

My only observation here is that BSC had absolutely zero to lose at the time. Nothing. Making the leap of faith was zero risk, probably still is. That cannot be said of most other clubs outside of Edufrance and Colts.

[GordonS]

BSC Glasgow created out of the Broomhill Sports Club based at Broomhill Primary School. Broomhill Primary to Maryhill FC is only a couple of miles away, basically on their doorstep. BSC Glasgow played at Maryhill for the 2014/15 and 2015/16 seasons. Two full seasons, they never imagined they would of been playing in Alloa.
And the reason they never went the Gartcairn route is the obvious answer, they never wanted to be a Junior Football club. If they wanted Junior football they could of simply linked up with Maryhill FC. Just like Cumbernauld Colts could of linked up with Cumbernauld United instead of creating a club of their own.
BSC Glasgow, Cumbernauld Colts, Bonnyton Thistle, Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts and now looking like Syngenta. All youth clubs that had existed in some form for quite sometime. Any one of them could of created a Junior side if they wanted, turns out the SJFA isn't that attractive from those that exist outside of it.

I honestly don't know how that's a reply to what I've posted. Are you saying it's ok for a club to play absolutely nowhere near their home community just because they don't like any of the leagues available to them there? I think we just need to disagree on this one.