Junior football, what is the future?

[HTG]

50 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

I think the Junior Superleague idea has long since sunk or sailed. Once a WoS league is established, I imagine it will be the end of teams cherry-picking which region they belong to. BU and LR are East teams.

I disagree old bean. I think a set up which was going to allow Clydebank to travel east  (or has Stirling Uni already in it) suggests there are no agreed boundaries in a structure which sits outside junior football. It would hardly be a huge leap for any team west of Edinburgh to get involved if that were their best route in to the pyramid. 

It might encourage some readjustment or alignment down the line but given that any old scramble seems to be the order of the day, who's to say whether teams should be excluded. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I disagree old bean. I think a set up which was going to allow Clydebank to travel east  (or has Stirling Uni already in it) suggests there are no agreed boundaries in a structure which sits outside junior football. It would hardly be a huge leap for any team west of Edinburgh to get involved if that were their best route in to the pyramid. 
It might encourage some readjustment or alignment down the line but given that any old scramble seems to be the order of the day, who's to say whether teams should be excluded. 

I think that might be more down to the fact it’s the only option available. I’m sure an actual boundary will be discussed between all parties. However it seems no one is actually putting together a west league currently...

[cmontheloknow]

10 minutes ago, HTG said:

I disagree old bean. I think a set up which was going to allow Clydebank to travel east  (or has Stirling Uni already in it) suggests there are no agreed boundaries in a structure which sits outside junior football. It would hardly be a huge leap for any team west of Edinburgh to get involved if that were their best route in to the pyramid. 

It might encourage some readjustment or alignment down the line but given that any old scramble seems to be the order of the day, who's to say whether teams should be excluded. 

If the WoS is formed, I really cannot see anyone from Glasgow deciding to trek through to Edinburgh willingly on grounds of cost and hassle. As is is at present, there is no viable alternative. I think once WoS forms (or is that an 'if'?) the boundaries will be much tighter. EK are only in EoS FA out of convenience for their fixture list - access to more cups etc. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[buboy]

As its been said if when it starts it will probably be a free for all to start with Glasgow to Boness linlithgow 30 mins away hardly an expedition

[FairWeatherFan]

I get the feeling some people don't like the idea of having to start at tier 7 or 8 on the pyramid.

[HTG]

11 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

If the WoS is formed, I really cannot see anyone from Glasgow deciding to trek through to Edinburgh willingly on grounds of cost and hassle. As is is at present, there is no viable alternative. I think once WoS forms (or is that an 'if'?) the boundaries will be much tighter. EK are only in EoS FA out of convenience for their fixture list - access to more cups etc. 

If it's convenient now then it's a convenient precedent going forward. 

[Khufu2]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I get the feeling some people don't like the idea of having to start at tier 7 or 8 on the pyramid.

I can't think of a single rational argument for placing good clubs at tier 7 or 8 and leaving a lot of duff clubs at tier 6. Can you? It would make the pyramid a laughing stock.

[HTG]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I get the feeling some people don't like the idea of having to start at tier 7 or 8 on the pyramid.

And that would be a surprise ... why?  Of course some people don't like the idea - who would? Bear in mind that folk rabbiting away on here are putting forward their own opinions and not those of their club. 

If a West of Scotland League were to take off there are plenty options on how to do it. Folk don't need to be held by what exists in the juniors just now.  The idea that the west juniors can just lift and drop their structure doesn't account for applications from clubs who may be outside their structure just now.  

[Jason King]

11 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I can't think of a single rational argument for placing good clubs at tier 7 or 8 and leaving a lot of duff clubs at tier 6. Can you? It would make the pyramid a laughing stock.

Not if these clubs are joining the existing pyramid - its their effective "punishment" for not involving themselves sooner.

[cmontheloknow]

12 minutes ago, HTG said:

And that would be a surprise ... why?  Of course some people don't like the idea - who would? Bear in mind that folk rabbiting away on here are putting forward their own opinions and not those of their club. 

If a West of Scotland League were to take off there are plenty options on how to do it. Folk don't need to be held by what exists in the juniors just now.  The idea that the west juniors can just lift and drop their structure doesn't account for applications from clubs who may be outside their structure just now.  

I just don't see the WRSJFA getting anywhere near tier 6 - it would be a standalone league or leagues I think. Reason being - ERSJFA would want parity and ERSJFA alongside EoS is wishful thinking (IMO). I do forsee geographical boundaries being drawn (not based on old regions or anything like that): east of one degree or decimal point of longitude = EoS and and west of it = WoS. That could be Falkirk, it could be Harthill, it could be anywhere that's agreed upon. EKFC being EoSFA members to play in the Football Nation Cup  I don't think is going to float going forward.

Edited April 10, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, HTG said:

And that would be a surprise ... why?  Of course some people don't like the idea - who would? Bear in mind that folk rabbiting away on here are putting forward their own opinions and not those of their club. 

If a West of Scotland League were to take off there are plenty options on how to do it. Folk don't need to be held by what exists in the juniors just now.  The idea that the west juniors can just lift and drop their structure doesn't account for applications from clubs who may be outside their structure just now.  

I don't think anyone with any actual say in the pyramid expects the new look West Premiership to be simply be placed at tier 6. 

There's the SoSFL to consider due to them technically covering the "west of scotland", Glasgow Uni due to be in the "west of scotland" and a SFA license member, there's the EoSFL/SoSFL/Lowland League to consider as they have to accept promotion and relegation structures between themselves.

Also having apparently seen the Linlithgow and Bo'ness committees give the EoSFL a miss next season, I don't see them signing up for trips to Ayrshire.

[HTG]

14 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I can't think of a single rational argument for placing good clubs at tier 7 or 8 and leaving a lot of duff clubs at tier 6. Can you? It would make the pyramid a laughing stock.

The argument is based on the need for clubs to apply. You're assuming a logical  (and rational) integration. This irrational approach is exacerbated by a scramble in the east - in no small measure as a result of no other options having been clearly set out. 

[lithgierose]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I don't think anyone with any actual say in the pyramid expects the new look West Premiership to be simply be placed at tier 6. 

There's the SoSFL to consider due to them technically covering the "west of scotland", Glasgow Uni due to be in the "west of scotland" and a SFA license member, there's the EoSFL/SoSFL/Lowland League to consider as they have to accept promotion and relegation structures between themselves.

Also having apparently seen the Linlithgow and Bo'ness committees give the EoSFL a miss next season, I don't see them signing up for trips to Ayrshire.

Like the west clubs not going for the super duper option.

[buboy]

Trips to Ayrshire small potatoes compared to the trips currently suffered going to carnoustie excetera. With these clubs not bringing any support to any away fixtures

[Khufu2]

8 minutes ago, Jason King said:

Not if these clubs are joining the existing pyramid - its their effective "punishment" for not involving themselves sooner.

Punishment isn't really a very good rationale for constructing a pyramid which supposedly meant to place the better teams above the poorer ones.

[cmontheloknow]

16 minutes ago, HTG said:

The argument is based on the need for clubs to apply. You're assuming a logical  (and rational) integration. This irrational approach is exacerbated by a scramble in the east - in no small measure as a result of no other options having been clearly set out. 

In the West I see these paths:

1. The SJFA gets their dream ticket of getting in at Tier 5.

2. The SJFA get their 2nd choice of going in 'as is' at Tier 6. 

3. Some WRSJFA members decide to jump ship, appoint the relevant office bearers, then actually jump ship and set up a WoS League at Senior level, with some licenced clubs from other leagues also coming on board. I would see this as an 'invites and applications' process. Some apply to join, others are invited by the office bearers if they don't voluntarily apply. This league is at Tier 6 and supercedes the SoS (which does not cover 'the West' - it covers the SW and has recent history of allowing non-SW teams in - a different scenarioo to being THE West feeder).

4. All of point 3 bar the last bit - it sits alongside SoS and Eos at tier 6.

5. The (remaining?) SJFA clubs in the East and West 'stay loyal to the grade' (ffs) and go in 'as is' below the SoS and EoS.

6. Status quo. No pyramid. Mon the Juniors!

Possible outcomes may include a mix and match of the above. 3 and 5 perhaps. Some go, some stay and dovetail in underneath.

The North scenario is simpler in that they'd just go below Highland but equally is complicated by the fact that Highland demands floodlights(for midweek matches outwith the Junior silly season) as an addition to Entry licence. This has put some NRSJFA clubs off the pyramid.

As for East, where to start! EoS / ERSJFA overlap the blatantly difficult issue.

Edited April 10, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

In the West I see these paths:

1. The SJFA gets their dream ticket of getting in at Tier 5.

2. The SJFA get their 2nd choice of going in 'as is' at Tier 6. 

3. Some WRSJFA members decide to jump ship, appoint the relevant office bearers, then actually jump ship and set up a WoS League at Senior level, with some licenced clubs from other leagues also coming on board. I would see this as an 'invites and applications' process. Some apply to join, others are invited by the office bearers if they don't voluntarily apply. This league is at Tier 6 and supercedes the SoS (which does not cover 'the West' - it covers the SW and has recent history of allowing non-SW teams in - a different scenarioo to being THE West feeder).

4. All of point 3 bar the last bit - it sits alongside SoS and Eos at tier 6.

5. The SJFA clubs in the East and West 'stay loyal to the grade' (ffs) and go in 'as is' below the SoS and EoS.

6. Status quo. No pyramid. Mon the Juniors!

Possible outcomes may include a mix and match of the above. 3 and 5 perhaps. Some go, some stay and dovetail in underneath.

The North scenario is simpler in that they'd jyst go below Highland and is complicated by the fact that Highland demands fllodlights as an addition to Entry licence. This has put some NRSJFA clubs off the pyramid.

As for East, where to start! EoS / ERSJFA overlap the issue as I see it.

Scenario 4  AND scenario 6.   A new WoSFL with a rump of clubs remaining in the non-Pyramid SJFA.

[craigkillie]

22 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

I just don't see the WRSJFA getting anywhere near tier 6 - it would be a standalone league or leagues I think. Reason being - ERSJFA would want parity and ERSJFA alongside EoS is wishful thinking (IMO). I do forsee geographical boundaries being drawn (not based on old regions or anything like that): east of one degree or decimal point of longitude = EoS and and west of it = WoS. That could be Falkirk, it could be Harthill, it could be anywhere that's agreed upon. EKFC being EoSFA members to play in the Football Nation Cup  I don't think is going to float going forward.

I'd imagine one of the main reasons why East Kilbride are part of the EoSFA is to provide some extra cup games throughout the season.  If a parallel WoSFA was set up and had their own version of the Football Nation Cup you'd imagine EK would move across to that anyway.

[Khufu2]

29 minutes ago, HTG said:

The argument is based on the need for clubs to apply. You're assuming a logical  (and rational) integration. This irrational approach is exacerbated by a scramble in the east - in no small measure as a result of no other options having been clearly set out. 

I agree with those who think it highly unlikely that the West Region will administer any new WOSL which comes to pass.  We don;t know for a fact that there will be an equivalent to the EOSL in the west, but it is a crazy idea that any west team which wants to join the pyramid must join the EOSL!

At least in the west there is an empty canvas. By 2019-20, unless the SJFA pulls a rabbit out of the hat, I think all the top west clubs will be wanting to join the pyramid. I think the licensed SOSL teams should be guaranteed a place in a new WOSL (I can't see Glasgow Uni wanting to take up their place) but thereafter I think there would be sufficient clubs to form level 6 and 7 divisions (with SOSL as an additional level 7 feeder).

The east is a mess because of the likely junior defections who have completely undermined the rest of the east juniors. (Maybe TJ will prevail at the last minute!). We now have the prospect of a few good teams,  several mediocre teams and  quite a few duff teams clogging up levels 6 and 7 by the start of 2019-20.  It's hard to see how the likes of Bo'ness and Linlithgow can hope to start at any level  in the east above level 7. I can see why it might be attractive for them to change allegiance to the west if there are no hard and fast boundaries. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Khufu2

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

The east is a mess because of the likely junior defections who have completely undermined the rest of the east juniors. (Maybe TJ will prevail at the last minute!). We now have the prospect of a few good teams,  several mediocre teams and  quite a few duff teams clogging up levels 6 and 7 by the start of 2019-20.  It's hard to see how the likes of Bo'ness and Linlithgow can hope to start at any level above level 7. I can see why it might be attractive for them to change allegiance to the west if there are no hard and fast boundaries. 

Nobody has "undermined" anyone, this is "grade" syndrome again, we act as one or not at all. It's also highly disrespectful to those clubs who have taken the major decision to move, that option was open to every single club in the East.