Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, naetshirt said:

2 hours ago, Tynieness said:

Can you, I do not have that information available, what I do have is a list of benefits...
What does the East of Scotland Football League have to offer?
• Membership of EOSFL which confirms acceptance of and commitment to the pyramid system thereby satisfying a mandatory requirement of being granted a Club Licence. SJFA - No
• Automatic entry to the Scottish Cup for Champion Club irrespective of licencing status which will generate a minimum income in excess of £3,000 SJFA - YES
• 3 ways of Scottish Cup Entry, EOS & SOS League Champions, Alex Jack Cup Winner, Any Licenced Club SJFA - No
• £3,000 Funding towards ground improvements available to all un-licenced  clubs looking to gain their SFA Licence. SJFA - No
• Up to £10,000 funding as an EOS club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements. SJFA - No
• Our ambition is to have all Members licenced as soon as possible and thereby automatically in the Scottish Cup every year. SJFA - No
• Very likely more promotion places will be available to enter the Lowland League from Tier 6. SJFA - No
• SFA Sports First Aid courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge). SFA Licence compliant. SJFA - No
• All clubs supplied with a defibrillator and associated training. SFA Licence compliant. SJFA - No
• Bespoke personalised first aid bag. SJFA - No
• Personal Accident and Liability insurance incl. player to player liability paid for by the League. SFA  Licence compliant. SJFA - No (EOS supply all 3 insurances that pass Licence criteria)
• Match balls and training balls supplied each season. SJFA - Yes (Matchballs only)
• Coaching courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge) up to C Licence level. SJFA - Unsure
• Prize money for those Clubs finishing in the top four in the league. SJFA - Yes
• A sound organisational structure with fixtures issued on a seasonal basis. SJFA - No
• In combination with the Scottish Lowland League and the South of Scotland League an U20 development league for the development of a player pathway. SJFA - No
• Automatic entry for the U20 team into the Scottish Youth Cup. SJFA - No
LOWLAND LEAGUE (added to above)
• As it stands winner goes into a play off for promotion to SPFL. SJFA - No
• Winner gets automatic entry into the Betfred Cup Group Stage, £17,000 minimum prize money, guaranteed 2 home matches in group also. SJFA - No
• Top 4 qualify for Irn Bru Cup, minimum £3,000 Prize money. SJFA - No
• Up to £20,000 funding as a LL club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements. SJFA - No
 

How much does a club have to shell out to to qualify for these incentives?

League fees i don't have a number, but if you look at the spread of clubs already in the league and those officially accepted i'm sure any club in the East Region structure can find the money to cover it.

To start an SFA Club licence is £2,000.  You'll notice there's a fund for upto £3,000 on ground improvements for non-licenced clubs to assist in gaining a licence.

[Jambo'ness]

58 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

Could get this to a 1000 pages by Christmas.

Could strip it by half if the 'Egyptian' contributions were removed.

[naetshirt]

I'm hearing "play in big cup" "get more money" "improve grounds" etc! What about standard of football! I have watched both SJFA and EOSL matches last season and know exactly where my money will be spent next year. Best value by far is SJFA Scottish ties and selected league and local cups.

[ShrimpLok]

Just now, naetshirt said:

Most sensible post yet! Flocks of sheep syndrome!

What most teams want is sustainable football at a decent quality level playing teams of a similar standard within a reasonable travelling distance. 

I can totally see for Tayport that the best solution probably involves playing against the Angus and Dundee clubs. 

Different decision for those in East Lothian. 

But really the only thing clubs will lose on leaving the Juniors is entry to the Junior Cup. With a sensible negotiated solution that could have been agreed as a cup for all Level 5 and below teams. It would probably need better scheduling, no replays, first 3 rounds done by October, Rounds 1/2 regionalised and provisional league fixtures but none of those are impossible. 

If I were involved with Tayport I’d be lobbying the PWG to move the LL boundary so that you can remain in the same setup as the Angus clubs in any future change. Perhaps there could be a hostage swap to let Luncarty stay with the Perth teams.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, naetshirt said:

I'm hearing "play in big cup" "get more money" "improve grounds" etc! What about standard of football! I have watched both SJFA and EOSL matches last season and know exactly where my money will be spent next year. Best value by far is SJFA Scottish ties and selected league and local cups.

"Play in big cup" = Players hate the prospect of playing against bigger clubs and for bigger bonuses.

"Get more money" = Players hate getting paid more money

"Improve grounds" = Players hate playing in decent looking grounds and having access to proper facilities. Public parks all the way!

I think you'll find all the best players are leaving the Junior grade for the greatest grade of them all:

Amateurs!

[Jambo'ness]

7 minutes ago, naetshirt said:

I'm hearing "play in big cup" "get more money" "improve grounds" etc! What about standard of football! I have watched both SJFA and EOSL matches last season and know exactly where my money will be spent next year. Best value by far is SJFA Scottish ties and selected league and local cups.

We have just had our worst season in a decade and the main reason was that the players we had targeted at the start of the season chose to play in what they believed was a higher league, be it EoS or LL.  Our area has been decimated by clubs moving and so staying would have meant an even weaker choice of signings this summer.

In your Tayside bubble everything seems fine.  I'm pleased if it works out for you but your money was hardly going to be spent in Dunbar for example, so no major earth tremor down here.

[shuggie123]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

How many times do people need to tell you that it's not just about money? It might not improve that much going to the EOS, but it also won't get worse.

Is being 6 or more promotions away from the top league not worse than 2? Most of the teams moving will be stuck in that position with no prospect of stepping up. It won't take long for the few fans they have to drift away when they have to pay £12 entry instead of £6.

Edited June 3, 2018 by shuggie123

[Khufu2]

43 minutes ago, ShrimpLok said:

Yeah it works out well for them. 

In terms of Big Scottish entry I wonder if eventually the change proposed might be to keep a place for Junior Cup winner but drop the Superleague places. That would be parity with the amateurs and reflect the reduced status of the East Superleague.

Eh?  Why would a place be taken away from the West or North  because the East Superleague is weaker? 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Khufu2

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, shuggie123 said:

Is being 6 or more promotions away from the top league not worse than 2? Most of the teams moving will be stuck in that position with no prospect of stepping up. It won't take long for the few fans they have to drift away.

At the time Camelon Juniors made their announcement they mentioned their average attendance at that point was 95. You don't think fans aren't already drifting away?

[Marten]

5 minutes ago, shuggie123 said:

Is being 6 or more promotions away from the top league not worse than 2? Most of the teams moving will be stuck in that position with no prospect of stepping up. It won't take long for the few fans they have to drift away.

I don't see the issue as long as you just play your football at your level, which is exactly what will keep happening. In the juniors you might be only 2 promotions away from the top league, but that's only an artificial "top league", as it's not in any pyramid. You could argue that the top league in non-league is the Lowland League, which is only 1 promotion away from the EOS. I see no reason why fans would drift away.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Marten

[Khufu2]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

At the time Camelon Juniors made their announcement they mentioned their average attendance at that point was 95. You don't think fans aren't already drifting away?

Do you think they’ll be turning out in force for the visits of Tweedmouth, Stirling Uni Res, Tynecastle,  Craigroyston  or Dalkeith?

[shuggie123]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

At the time Camelon Juniors made their announcement they mentioned their average attendance at that point was 95. You don't think fans aren't already drifting away?

Yes, they are and is quite noticable at my own club. Do you think kicking around at level 6 or 7 will entice them back?

[Salvo Montalbano]

I'll just stop at the first one.
 
"What does the East of Scotland Football League have to offer?
Mandatory requirement of being granted a licence"  
There are teams in the EoS, who have been members for years, who are a million miles from being granted a licence. Peebles Rovers doesn't even have an enclosed ground. Mind you in the wonderful world of SFA licensing I suppose they could ground share with East Fife or someone like that.
LTHV could easily have been EoS champions this season. They  have no license.
Someone is going to have to explain the  EOS's "Mandatory requirement of being granted a licence"  to me.
 
 

If you need it explained you've either not been paying attention or haven't understood why the likes of Kelty moved in the first place. If you want to be licensed, you need to commit to the pyramid. Being in the EoS shows this commitment so you can apply for a license. Staying Junior means you aren't so you can't. Not too hard to grasp really.

I'm hearing "play in big cup" "get more money" "improve grounds" etc! What about standard of football! I have watched both SJFA and EOSL matches last season and know exactly where my money will be spent next year. Best value by far is SJFA Scottish ties and selected league and local cups.

But if many of the same clubs that were junior are now in the EoS, surely the standard will remain broadly similar. That's ignoring the fact that some of the better junior players might well move to teams who have made the switch.

Is being 6 or more promotions away from the top league not worse than 2? Most of the teams moving will be stuck in that position with no prospect of stepping up. It won't take long for the few fans they have to drift away.

It depends on your ambition I suppose. Most clubs at the top end of the juniors I'm sure would like to test themselves against bigger and better teams (even nationally since they don't have the same aversion to travelling more than 90 minutes by coach some folk seem to have) but at the moment they can't do that. Some other junior teams will want to simply move up to a higher league in their own area. The very point that there is a route to the SPFL Premiership no matter how small the possibility of it happening is surely better than having no possibility at all?

[Khufu2]

1 minute ago, shuggie123 said:

Yes, they are and is quite noticable at my own club. Do you think kicking around at level 6 or 7 will entice them back?

And playing a weaker collection of clubs, with even poorer support than the teams they currently play.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Khufu2 said:

Do you think they’ll be turning out in force for the visits of Tweedmouth, Stirling Uni Res, Tynecastle,  Craigroyston  or Dalkeith?

It's amazing how you've already got the fixture list for the season ahead. Can you tell if Sauchie and Oakley really are the other two clubs?

As for Camelon's attendances. I imagine they'll stay similar, if not attract a little bump in interest due to new opponents/league.

[Slaverysam]

Can see a few teams in the East returning to the Juniors once the gold nuggets fail to appear.

Can't see it buddy, East juniors well and truly done only one viable show in town

[Khufu2]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's amazing how you've already got the fixture list for the season ahead. Can you tell if Sauchie and Oakley really are the other two clubs?

As for Camelon's attendances. I imagine they'll stay similar, if not attract a little bump in interest due to new opponents/league.

I can give you another 10 very mediocre teams if you like.  Whoever ends up in their group it will be a weaker set of clubs than they currently play.

[AlanCamelonfan]

30 minutes ago, naetshirt said:

I'm hearing "play in big cup" "get more money" "improve grounds" etc! What about standard of football! I have watched both SJFA and EOSL matches last season and know exactly where my money will be spent next year. Best value by far is SJFA Scottish ties and selected league and local cups.

So bonnyrigg linlithgow and camelon will all of a sudden be a poor team because they have joined eosfl. The eosfl teams will improve junior teams like Dunipace with signings they've made that they wouldn'tbe able to sign in juniors. You want to go watch local ties like Fauldhouse vs Lochee. Should flush your head downtoilet you might get some sense or maybehit your head against the wall you have to piss against at a Junior ground

[Khufu2]

1 minute ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

So bonnyrigg linlithgow and camelon will all of a sudden be a poor team because they have joined eosfl. The eosfl teams will improve junior teams like Dunipace with signings they've made that they wouldn'tbe able to sign in juniors. You want to go watch local ties like Fauldhouse vs Lochee. Should flush your head downtoilet you might get some sense or maybehit your head against the wall you have to piss against at a Junior ground

If you go to some of your newly-found friend’s grounds you won’t even find a wall to piss against.

[Jambo'ness]

1 minute ago, Khufu2 said:

And playing a weaker collection of clubs, with even poorer support than the teams they currently play.

 

A lot will depend on their performance, as in any grade of football.