Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

16 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Yip, it might just be registering an interest to see what it's all about before deciding to apply.  Point is, some of those teams would be humped most weeks in a WoSFL so I'm not sure what they would have to gain by joining at this point (which is likely to be a Conference tier 6 system).

Musselburgh have put 13 past Mid's this season in 2 games, we put 8 past St.C's.

And why were most of the existing EoS clubs okay knowing they would get "humped" most weeks? Because they knew long term it would settle and they'd find their level. If you can get in now you can also have a voice in how it operates.

[Che Dail]

22 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Scrap League 2 (Tier 4), regionalise at Tier 3 (make Championship bigger to allow more relegation places), then have Highland and Lowland (which would then be Tier 4)- feeding directly into SPFL League One North and League One South.

No play offs , just a straight one up, one down between League One's and HL/LL. Put and extra 2-4 teams into the SPFL to allay the fears of the lower league teams.

That's what I think.

See for me, you cannot ignore the voice / opinion of the two most successful and sustainable non-league clubs in west and east in recent(ish) times: Talbot and Linlithgow (pre-EOS move) which is basically to say that the national leagues are a problem for them in that it is not attractive to play in a league with Forfar / Elgin / Brechin / Cove etc.   To my mind, nor should this be desirable either because it serves no practical purpose. 

But the prospect of being a stepping stone away from promotion to play Dundee United, Ayr United, Dunfermline would be desirable -  There's a huge incentive, whereas in the current structure there is not. 

The problem / barrier / sticking point is what happens further up the chain - and I believe that once all the clubs are in the pyramid (which is 100% the right thing to do) the whole set-up should be re-structured / shaken up for the good of the game.

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Che Dail

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

That's what I think.
See for me, you cannot ignore the voice / opinion of the two most successful and sustainable non-league clubs in west and east in recent(ish) times: Talbot and Linlithgow (pre-EOS move)
 

Oh you absolutely can. Its very easy.

[Doonhamer1969]

8 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The geographical integrity angle has yet to be explained, so time will tell who gets to put an application in. Suspect the D&G SoS clubs won't be able to as it would make it difficult to say no to West Lothian clubs. An interesting angle would be that if all the licensed SoS clubs left for a new west setup the LL playoff format would become a moot point, but Wigtown weren't mentioned so think there would still be one left even if those clubs all defected.

I doubt many of the SoS clubs would apply to the WoS. It would just make it more difficult for them to get to Tier 5.

Although, its possible Threave and St Cuthberts would, to get more competitive games, as Threave did previously when they joined the EoS.

[Robert James]

12 hours ago, TheDemon said:

So from what i'm hearing, we have at least 5 South of Scotland teams interested; Bonnyton, Threave, Newton, Saints and Mids. 

So in only your 4th ever post on this forum, you have been able to reach inside the hearts and minds of "at least 5 South of Scotland teams interested" in joining the new West league.  

That would be some achievement ! 

Burnie_Man, TheDemon  could be about to steal your crown as the person with the most insight, on here  ? 

[Burnie_man]

And why were most of the existing EoS clubs okay knowing they would get "humped" most weeks? Because they knew long term it would settle and they'd find their level. If you can get in now you can also have a voice in how it operates.

Because I would have thought letting the structure settle down and then joining at the appropriate level may work better for them, and stay SoS tier 6 meantime. Then there is the issue of a WoS league taking members from another league ie geographical integrity.

EoS was different as it was strong clubs joining weaker clubs already in situ.

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

I'd be very surprised if this was accurate.

Agreed

[Junior Pub League]

31 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

The problem / barrier / sticking point is what happens further up the chain - and I believe that once all the clubs are in the pyramid (which is 100% the right thing to do) the whole set-up should be re-structured / shaken up for the good of the game.

 

SPFL clubs are 100% behind having a national league.

I'm not sure why you think you know better than them.

Regionalisation is for lower non-leagues (such as the Juniors, Ams, EoS, WoS, SoS) your national structure should be that - national. If you did split the bottom 2 SPFL divisions into regional setups your northern section, based on this seasons bottom 2 SPFL leagues, would have to include Raith, East Fife, Cowdenbeath or Stirling.

None of which are you know actually in the North.

Regionalisation of the national league is a deluded argument from people who hate to see clubs progressing. The strawman argument of "Elgin on a Tuesday night and it costing £30" has been shot down on here so many times that its frankly bizarre that people are still claiming its an issue.

….and of course over the course of time these mythical trips to Elgin may vanish anyway as the pyramid  could see them be replaced by the likes of Auchinleck in the SPFL.

 

edit - bottom 2 leagues would split,

North - Cove, Elgin, Brechin, Peterhead, Forfar, Montrose, Stirling, Cowdenbeath, East Fife, Raith

South - Edinburgh, Falkirk, Queens Park, Annan, Albion R, Airdrie, Stenhousemuir, Stanraer, Dumbarton, Clyde

And of course the other myth perpetuated is that all players seem to live within 5 minutes of their home ground. I wonder how many Stranraer players actually live in Stranraer.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Junior Pub League

[Doonhamer1969]

13 hours ago, TheDemon said:

So from what i'm hearing, we have at least 5 South of Scotland teams interested; Bonnyton, Threave, Newton, Saints and Mids. 

Really cant see Mids doing that. Dont have the necessary set up.

Ps You can take the boy our of Lockerbie, but you cant take Lockerbie out of the boy   

Edited February 18, 2020 by Doonhamer1969

[Che Dail]

26 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Oh you absolutely can. Its very easy.

[FairWeatherFan]

24 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Because I would have thought letting the structure settle down and then joining at the appropriate level may work better for them.

Except as you've seen with EoS, you join at the bottom. Maybe some clubs don't see that as an appropriate level.

You've also got the potential death by a thousand cuts in staying. Bonnyton leave you're in a 14 team league with two reserves. Caledonian Braves pull their membership to align with the WOSFL. They could then pull their reserves. Stranraer have a history of pulling their reserves and look good to get relegated to SPFL2. Cost cutting could be in their future.

[Dev]

St Rochs Twitter

St Rochs Juniors

16 February at 08:39 ·

We will be having a meeting this Friday at 7pm for all fans to discuss the proposed new proposal regarding the pyramid system and the new West Of Scotland league
Meeting will be held at JMP

[Che Dail]

10 minutes ago, Junior Pub League said:

SPFL clubs are 100% behind having a national league.

I'm not sure why you think you know better than them.

Regionalisation is for lower non-leagues (such as the Juniors, Ams, EoS, WoS, SoS) your national structure should be that - national. If you did split the bottom 2 SPFL divisions into regional setups your northern section based on this seasons bottom 2 SPFL leagues would have to include Raith, East Fife, Cowdenbeath or Stirling. None of which are you know actually in the North.

Regionalisation of the national league is a deluded argument from people who hate to see clubs progressing. The strawman argument of "Elgin on a Tuesday night and it costing £30" has been shot down on here so many times that its frankly bizarre that people are still claiming its an issue.

….and of course over the course of time these mythical trips to Elgin may vanish anyway as the pyramid  could see them be replaced by the likes of Auchinleck in the SPFL.

 

edit - bottom 2 leagues would split,

North - Cove, Elgin, Brechin, Peterhead, Forfar, Montrose, Stirling, Cowdenbeath, East Fife, Raith

South - Edinburgh, Falkirk, Queens Park, Annan, Albion R, Airdrie, Stenhousemuir, Stanraer, Dumbarton, Clyde

 

Of course they are, they have a vested interest. The national 'pro' league is for vanity - how are half these clubs progressing themselves or the game?

And what have those clubs delivered? Mediocrity.

Where is the talent? Why do we not send players to Barca / Real Madrid/ Bayern Munich / AC Milan?

Raith Rovers for example are prepared to risk the future of the club gambling on full-time status to win promotion... for what?? Only 3% of the town's population go to home games (which slightly below average for L2 clubs). Where is the demand from people?

Cowdenbeath is another one: not a viable business, not sustainable.

Who are they serving, why are they doing it, and why would anyone want to follow their lead?  

 

 

[Dev]

https://www.southlanarkshire.gov.uk/view/news/article/489/Work_underway_at_Craighead_Park?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn&utm_content=The+View

LESMAHAGOW

Improvement works costing around £80,000 have started at Craighead Park in Lesmahagow

Beginning today (Monday, 17 February), the work will replace the stand and changing pavilion roof at the stadium which has become synonymous with local football side, Lesmahagow Juniors.

The old stand was demolished in 2019 due to health and safety concerns and will be replaced by a new purpose built metal covered stand which will accommodate around 200 people standing.

The current terracing will undergo significant ground works to make safe and accommodate the new stand. The pavilion roof will also be replaced.

Chair of South Lanarkshire Council’s Community and Enterprise Resources Committee, Councillor John Anderson, said: “We have worked closely with Lesmahagow Juniors, who have a long history and association with the village stretching back nearly 100 years.

“I would ask everyone to be aware that the area will effectively be a building site from Monday, 17 February and should not be accessed by unauthorised personnel.

“Staff from South Lanarkshire Leisure and Culture Limited and the police will be carrying out patrols in the area throughout the time of the works.

"The roof works should be completed within four weeks but the exact duration of all works won't be known until the ground works commence on site.”

A spokesperson for Lesmahagow Juniors said: “We would like to thank the external funders, especially the Lesmahagow Development Trust and Renewable Energy Fund for making this possible.

“These works are key to our continued future at Craighead. The club would like to thank the local community and businesses for their continued support.”

[Burnie_man]

Except as you've seen with EoS, you join at the bottom. Maybe some clubs don't see that as an appropriate level.
You've also got the potential death by a thousand cuts in staying. Bonnyton leave you're in a 14 team league with two reserves. Caledonian Braves pull their membership to align with the WOSFL. They could then pull their reserves. Stranraer have a history of pulling their reserves and look good to get relegated to SPFL2. Cost cutting could be in their future.

As I said, reserve teams are unlikely to be considered for WoS. I don't think the SoS will change that much next season, I just can't see the WoS taking all their best clubs and leaving the SoS to flounder, the LL, EoS and SoS need to work together to get this to work.

Hence "geographical integrity".

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Idle curiosity at work. Most seem to think an exodus from the SoS aint happening and, even if it did, it's doubtful all the West Region teams would join and, again, even if all that were to happen, conferences worked well for the EoS so would probably be the order of the day here as well. Having said that if West Region and SoS joined up then going by current league position you could have a WoS Premier like this:

Threave Rovers FC            

Kilwinning Rangers

Bonnyton Thistle FC                      

Pollok

Mid Annandale FC                         

Auchinleck Talbot

Abbey Vale FC

Irvine Meadow XI

Newton Stewart FC

Glenafton Athletic

Nithsdale Wanderers FC              

Kilbirnie Ladeside

Heston Rovers FC           

Rossvale

St Cuthbert Wanderers FC          

Largs Thistle

Would any of the SoS teams finish above Largs in that scenario? Would Junior clubs be open to a season with no away fans for half their games?

[Junior Pub League]

6 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Who are they serving, why are they doing it, and why would anyone want to follow their lead?  

Hopefully attitudes like yours wont be in the majority and clubs will move on and progress. Clubs who have no ambition can stay in the Junior welfare leagues, no one will force them to be progress. Instead they can stay, wither and die. Like the grade.

Less than 3% of the population went to the theatre last night - should we shut down all of the theatres in the UK because you think they are unsustainable. You've got nothing but a laughable strawman argument that has repeatedly been shown to  be mince.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Junior Pub League

[Robert James]

 

I guess that over the next 6 weeks, there will be lots of 'scare stories', and 'alternative visions of a different  future for the pyramid in the west (and nationwide ?)'  than is currently on offer.

These 'opinions' are to be expected, as a way of causing confusion, discouraging applicants to the WoSL, and of staving off an exodus from leading junior clubs.

I fully accept that many junior clubs don't want to join the pyramid, and they are certain to try to argue a case that the grade should be maintained in its present form.  This is a legitimate view.  However there are also junior clubs which want to move forward and progress. 

This is therefore the key moment of choice for the West Juniors :  go or stay.  It is a legitimate choice for all the clubs themselves. This is not the time for further procrastination and delay.      

[Gordon EF]

7 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Of course they are, they have a vested interest. The national 'pro' league is for vanity - how are half these clubs progressing themselves or the game?

And what have those clubs delivered? Mediocrity.

Where is the talent? Why do we not send players to Barca / Real Madrid/ Bayern Munich / AC Milan?

Raith Rovers for example are prepared to risk the future of the club gambling on full-time status to win promotion... for what?? Only 3% of the town's population go to home games (which slightly below average for L2 clubs). Where is the demand from people?

Cowdenbeath is another one: not a viable business, not sustainable.

Who are they serving, why are they doing it, and why would anyone want to follow their lead?  

 

 

Ask exactly the same questions of every single club currently in a 'regional' league in Scotland.

Edit. Andy Robertson started his senior career with Queen's Park in League 2. Of course it's ridiculous to use that as an argument for or against the current set up. But one world class player in th epast 30 years is one more world class player than all other leagues in Scotland put together.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Gordon EF

[Marshmallo]

11 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Idle curiosity at work. Most seem to think an exodus from the SoS aint happening and, even if it did, it's doubtful all the West Region teams would join and, again, even if all that were to happen, conferences worked well for the EoS so would probably be the order of the day here as well. Having said that if West Region and SoS joined up then going by current league position you could have a WoS Premier like this:

Threave Rovers FC            

Kilwinning Rangers

Bonnyton Thistle FC                      

Pollok

Mid Annandale FC                         

Auchinleck Talbot

Abbey Vale FC

Irvine Meadow XI

Newton Stewart FC

Glenafton Athletic

Nithsdale Wanderers FC              

Kilbirnie Ladeside

Heston Rovers FC           

Rossvale

St Cuthbert Wanderers FC          

Largs Thistle

Would any of the SoS teams finish above Largs in that scenario? Would Junior clubs be open to a season with no away fans for half their games?

Not a single one of them would finish above Largs or any of the other Junior teams.