Junior football, what is the future?

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, archieb said:

 

Minutes of the SJFA Management Committee meeting that took place last Thursday were emailed to clubs a few hours ago. They include a lengthy section on the pyramid. Summarising:

1. Approx 40 clubs have not responded and these will be "expedited" in order for a detailed analysis to be carried out

2. Overwhelming majority of responses are in favour of joining the pyramid and calling an EGM before the AGM is being considered.

3. Prior to that regional meetings will be held

4. An earlier meeting between SJFA, SFA, HL, LL and EoSL had not reached a conclusive outcome & further discussions are planned

5. If SJFA joins the pyramid, clubs can take part in both Junior & Senior Cup subject to licensing and MC feels this is a better way forward than fragmentation

Is there a timescale for Regional Meetings and EGM's to be held  ?  Why wasn't this approach adopted by the SJFA at the outset when the Lowland League was first proposed ?

Regarding point 1, surely it can be assumed that the clubs who have not responded, have no real aspiration to progress through the pyramid. If they are "responses are to be expedited", they may well tip the balance (across the whole junior spectrum) in favour of a negative outcome. If so, how would this help the junior clubs who want to move regardless, in which event, a Junior 'split' seems inevitable ?

Regarding point 4, is that a surprise ? No !  Also, why weren't the SoSL invited to this "earlier meeting" ?

Regarding point 5, will the SJFA permit current 'senior' non-league clubs to enter the Junior Cup (should they wish to do so ?), or is this a divisive one way street , aimed at preserving the status quo?

[LongTimeLurker]

20 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

So the latest state of play, please reply if you have information to add or modify:

East

Super: Camelon, Bonnyrigg Rose, Hill of Beath? (discussed at committe level), Dundonald Bluebell? (discussed internally)

Premier: Dalkeith, Musselburgh, Haddington, Dunbar, Blackburn

South: Edinburgh United

West

Super Premier: Clydebank (holding EGM unclear what league and timeline), Kilwinning Rangers? (not at the moment, EoS West Region discussed at a public meeting but timeline unclear), Pollok?, Rob Roy?, Girvan?

Super First: Troon?

Ayrshire District: Ardrossan?, Dalry?

 

 

[cmontheloknow]

7 hours ago, Robert James said:

Is there a timescale for Regional Meetings and EGM's to be held  ?  Why wasn't this approach adopted by the SJFA at the outset when the Lowland League was first proposed ?

Regarding point 1, surely it can be assumed that the clubs who have not responded, have no real aspiration to progress through the pyramid. If they are "responses are to be expedited", they may well tip the balance (across the whole junior spectrum) in favour of a negative outcome. If so, how would this help the junior clubs who want to move regardless, in which event, a Junior 'split' seems inevitable ?

Regarding point 4, is that a surprise ? No !  Also, why weren't the SoSL invited to this "earlier meeting" ?

Regarding point 5, will the SJFA permit current 'senior' non-league clubs to enter the Junior Cup (should they wish to do so ?), or is this a divisive one way street , aimed at preserving the status quo?

Just on simple maths, if 40 are owed than about 120 are in (haven't checked the current roll). if the 'overwhelming majority' are in favour, to me that suggests a figure north of 70%, perhaps in the region of 70-100 clubs saying 'aye'? If the 40 snails / ostriches vote no, I can't see it being enough to switch the overall position to a no. 

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, cmontheloknow said:

Just on simple maths, if 40 are owed than about 120 are in (haven't checked the current roll). if the 'overwhelming majority' are in favour, to me that suggests a figure north of 70%, perhaps in the region of 70-100 clubs saying 'aye'? If the 40 snails / ostriches vote no, I can't see it being enough to switch the overall position to a no. 

The risk is that a lot of the 40 and those that said no are some of the bigger clubs in their regions. Which in turn would put off some of those that said yes knowing that little would change for them.

Last summer the majority of the North & West Regions were happy to  plan for their future through Summer 2019 by switching to region wide leagues. The pyramid never crossed their minds at the time while planning for 2 full seasons. Suggests there's a lot that aren't in a rush.

[Hillonearth]

6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The risk is that a lot of the 40 and those that said no are some of the bigger clubs in their regions. Which in turn would put off some of those that said yes knowing that little would change for them.

Last summer the majority of the North & West Regions were happy to  plan for their future through Summer 2019 by switching to region wide leagues. The pyramid never crossed their minds at the time while planning for 2 full seasons. Suggests there's a lot that aren't in a rush.

There's also a fair chance that rather than the larger sides, some of the ones that haven't responded are the same ones who at any hint of change to the status quo will darkly mutter about "putting teams out the game"

 

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

There's also a fair chance that rather than the larger sides, some of the ones that haven't responded are the same ones who at any hint of change to the status quo will darkly mutter about "putting teams out the game"

However the numbers pan out. It could well be a decent enough number to disrupt any united effort. More likely to see clubs keep jumping than wait for things to get organised to the SJFA's liking.

[corner]

Here is the news.

A meeting was held last night in Bonnryigg. It is over for the junior grade.

However, it is not over for the many excellent people who administer, manage, run, sponsor, support and play the junior game.

It is now crucial for the SFA to take hold of the situation and ensure an orderly transition. While there should be no concession to any "Continuity SJFA" its people (in the broadest sense) should now be involved in making this happen. If that means the SFA oiling a few wheels, fine. For the greater good.

[Dunning1874]

While the creation of a West Division would obviously be welcome and needs to happen at some tier eventually, would that division being created at Tier 6 feeding into the Lowland Tier 5 help or hinder the prospect of an East/West Tier 5 in the future? I realise the point has been made on here many times that due to the far greater depth in number of clubs in the Lowland area compared to Highland, many people feel it's unfair to have that split and it should go straight to a three way split at Tier 5.

For those of you who support clubs in the Junior set-up, who want to one day see your club in a workable pyramid but feel the current set-up isn't it, do you think having that East/West split at Tier 6 long-term with a Lowland level above it is good enough to live with? If not, would you be okay with your club joining at Tier 6 in the hope that could be a first step towards splitting Tier 5, or would you feel it's never going to be worth moving without guarantees that split will be in place?

There's also a question for the South of Scotland League there as well; if there was to be a Tier 5 split of East/West, what does that mean for those clubs? Would we simply have a three way split at Tier 6 of East/West/South, with promoted SoS sides split by geography, or could you see the SoSL break up with the clubs entering East/West Tier 6 divisions? Am I right in saying Upper Annandale and Mid Annandale are the furthest east clubs so pretty much everyone would be in the West in those scenarios anyway?

I don't intend to be disrespectful as the reason I'm asking is coming from a position of ignorance, but just looking at the various threads on the subject there seems to be a widely-held view that the South of Scotland league is weaker than the East. If we're at a point where the Juniors are coming over en masse and we're going down to Tier 7 or further for new clubs joining, is it going to be palatable to have a South Tier 6 division that's viewed as weaker - and has a reserve side in it which is a whole other can of worms - positioned above an East/West Tier 7?

I suppose you could view that as a similar situation to the lack of depth in the Highlands beyond Tier 5 and accept that the geography/demography of Scotland means you're never going to get a perfect regional balance the further through the tiers you go, but is it going to put clubs off from integrating?

The other question the prospect of the three way split at Tier 5 raises is promotion to Tier 4. While the creation of the pyramid was always going to require baby steps initially over relegation from Tier 4, it's ridiculous enough to have an 18 team and 16 team league playing for one promotion playoff place. Even if you make the bottom of Tier 4 automatic relegation - which has to happen regardless of the structure of Tier 5 sooner rather than later - that's still going to be a bit silly if you have a three way split.

You could feasibly have an 18 team Highland League, 16 Team East League & 16 Team West League playing for one promotion spot. Even if you bring in 9th place in Tier 4 to that and have a four way playoff with them and the regional champions for the two places, you've still only got two promotion places for the 50 teams in the Tier 5. That's not giving much opportunity to advance, but at the same time you can't realistically have three teams being relegated from a 10 team division; to allow three up three down with the champions of all of them going up you'd realistically have to create a bigger division through a merger of League One & League Two.

This goes full circle to my original question of the split at Tier 5. It's certainly going to be easier to organise promotion/relegation between Tiers 4 & 5 which properly rewards the winners of Tier 5 leagues if it's only the current Highland/Lowland split, so is there no prospect of the East/West split starting at Tier 6 being acceptable to the clubs outwith the pyramid currently? Of course, there's also the question of clubs currently in the Lowland League - would they accept being split into East & West?

I would say I don't envy the people who have to try to sort these issues out, but it doesn't look like the SFA or SJFA are bothering much. It's good to see some clubs taking decisions themselves though.

[Kilbowie Benches]

It was the SPFL that  insisted on a single division LL.

[Goalie Hamish]

1 hour ago, corner said:

It is now crucial for the SFA to take hold of the situation and ensure an orderly transition. While there should be no concession to any "Continuity SJFA" its people (in the broadest sense) should now be involved in making this happen. If that means the SFA oiling a few wheels, fine. For the greater good.

Like that will happen. Game is already up in the east, the pyramid is there and you either join it or you dinnae  and upto 10 clubs will next season. No need for the SFA to meddle in that.

[corner]

22 minutes ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Like that will happen. Game is already up in the east, the pyramid is there and you either join it or you dinnae  and upto 10 clubs will next season. No need for the SFA to meddle in that.

Don't get me wrong Hamish, I'm not holding my breath for the SFA, and your second sentence is exactly what will happen. But shortly after that, when the other 50 or 60 want to join (just in the East), then that will need a bit more co-ordination and good will all round.  I think you may be misreading where I'm coming from.

[pipedreamer]

1 hour ago, Dunning1874 said:

While the creation of a West Division would obviously be welcome and needs to happen at some tier eventually, would that division being created at Tier 6 feeding into the Lowland Tier 5 help or hinder the prospect of an East/West Tier 5 in the future? I realise the point has been made on here many times that due to the far greater depth in number of clubs in the Lowland area compared to Highland, many people feel it's unfair to have that split and it should go straight to a three way split at Tier 5.

For those of you who support clubs in the Junior set-up, who want to one day see your club in a workable pyramid but feel the current set-up isn't it, do you think having that East/West split at Tier 6 long-term with a Lowland level above it is good enough to live with? If not, would you be okay with your club joining at Tier 6 in the hope that could be a first step towards splitting Tier 5, or would you feel it's never going to be worth moving without guarantees that split will be in place?

There's also a question for the South of Scotland League there as well; if there was to be a Tier 5 split of East/West, what does that mean for those clubs? Would we simply have a three way split at Tier 6 of East/West/South, with promoted SoS sides split by geography, or could you see the SoSL break up with the clubs entering East/West Tier 6 divisions? Am I right in saying Upper Annandale and Mid Annandale are the furthest east clubs so pretty much everyone would be in the West in those scenarios anyway?

I don't intend to be disrespectful as the reason I'm asking is coming from a position of ignorance, but just looking at the various threads on the subject there seems to be a widely-held view that the South of Scotland league is weaker than the East. If we're at a point where the Juniors are coming over en masse and we're going down to Tier 7 or further for new clubs joining, is it going to be palatable to have a South Tier 6 division that's viewed as weaker - and has a reserve side in it which is a whole other can of worms - positioned above an East/West Tier 7?

I suppose you could view that as a similar situation to the lack of depth in the Highlands beyond Tier 5 and accept that the geography/demography of Scotland means you're never going to get a perfect regional balance the further through the tiers you go, but is it going to put clubs off from integrating?

The other question the prospect of the three way split at Tier 5 raises is promotion to Tier 4. While the creation of the pyramid was always going to require baby steps initially over relegation from Tier 4, it's ridiculous enough to have an 18 team and 16 team league playing for one promotion playoff place. Even if you make the bottom of Tier 4 automatic relegation - which has to happen regardless of the structure of Tier 5 sooner rather than later - that's still going to be a bit silly if you have a three way split.

You could feasibly have an 18 team Highland League, 16 Team East League & 16 Team West League playing for one promotion spot. Even if you bring in 9th place in Tier 4 to that and have a four way playoff with them and the regional champions for the two places, you've still only got two promotion places for the 50 teams in the Tier 5. That's not giving much opportunity to advance, but at the same time you can't realistically have three teams being relegated from a 10 team division; to allow three up three down with the champions of all of them going up you'd realistically have to create a bigger division through a merger of League One & League Two.

This goes full circle to my original question of the split at Tier 5. It's certainly going to be easier to organise promotion/relegation between Tiers 4 & 5 which properly rewards the winners of Tier 5 leagues if it's only the current Highland/Lowland split, so is there no prospect of the East/West split starting at Tier 6 being acceptable to the clubs outwith the pyramid currently? Of course, there's also the question of clubs currently in the Lowland League - would they accept being split into East & West?

I would say I don't envy the people who have to try to sort these issues out, but it doesn't look like the SFA or SJFA are bothering much. It's good to see some clubs taking decisions themselves though.

Why the clamour of an east/west split at tier 5? That makes the lowland league a lot less attractive to anyone in tier 4. The travel once a season to Dundee from Ayrshire, borders to Glasgow etc isn’t a problem for most clubs at the moment. A semi national league below the national leagues is perfectly reasonable IMO. Below that you could split again to east/west/north then below that You split again to east north/south and west north/south. The higher you go the bigger the region is reasonable. 

 

As a regular reader on the junior forum forum for many years I hear the problems with a super dooper League was the travel from the likes of glenafton/auchinleck to the likes of carnoustie, yet it would only be once a season. No more than this season with talbot playing Hill of Beath and Carnoustie in the junior cup etc.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

What's so difficult about moving those West Junior clubs who want to be in the Pyramid next season into a newly formed WoSFL?  answer, not a lot.

Honestly, I do sometimes despair. We currently have a set up that was organised in a hurry, and without going over the points again, surely now is the time to address this. Your haste to get west clubs into the pyramid as is sounds a tad desperate and in my opinion would only antagonise. We would then end up precisely where we were when the LL was accelerated,  creating disparity and inappropriate clubs fast tracked resulting in a real question mark over the actual quality and a build up of resentment. So, if you really want a proper pyramid set up with clubs actually finding their level perhaps now is the time to lay those  foundations, starting with proper sensible dialog regarding getting the west and junior football involved. You my friend seem intent on stoking up the divide instead of realising that this could be an opportunity. So, to answer your question, to rush in would not be difficult as was proven in the past, the consequence however is a different story!   

[kefc]

What is happening now is looking exactly how the SPFL, SFA had it panning out.

There stipulation on SFA Licence applications is If any club want a licence then you need to join the pyramid, they knew ambitious Junior clubs would want a licence in time and this was there way of getting them into the system. If the SJFA were open to discussions and showed an appetite to move with the SPFL/SFA then it wouldn’t have come to this I don’t think, SJFA ignored the pyramid which in turn when you look at it has held clubs back from fulfilling their potential. 

The SPFL want the LL to be as strong as possible so clubs dropping out have an easier landing into a competitive well supported tier 5, they are now on the way to getting that now that the dam seems to have burst on Junior clubs moving into the system.

It’s working for the SPFL, SFA and everyone part of the pyramid structure with the only losers looking like the SJFA and some of its ambitious clubs possibly afraid to move but who want to be part of the pyramid and licencing, those clubs are clinging on for dear life in the hope the SJFA can back their corner and produce a positive outcome which is a massive gamble they may regret.

West clubs may have an advantage in staying together in the hope they move as 1 into a vacant WOS structure but in the East it’s very much looking like if you snooze you lose.

Edited March 22, 2018 by kefc

[Burnie_man]

Honestly, I do sometimes despair. We currently have a set up that was organised in a hurry, and without going over the points again, surely now is the time to address this. Your haste to get west clubs into the pyramid as is sounds a tad desperate and in my opinion would only antagonise. We would then end up precisely where we were when the LL was accelerated,  creating disparity and inappropriate clubs fast tracked resulting in a real question mark over the actual quality and a build up of resentment. So, if you really want a proper pyramid set up with clubs actually finding their level perhaps now is the time to lay those  foundations, starting with proper sensible dialog regarding getting the west and junior football involved. You my friend seem intent on stoking up the divide instead of realising that this could be an opportunity. So, to answer your question, to rush in would not be difficult as was proven in the past, the consequence however is a different story!   

 Question not answered, just more bluster as usual. 

 

More than half the West clubs want a Pyramid, set up a WoSFL and invite applications from those clubs. It's as simple as that. Unlike the LL it doesn't cover multiple leagues and regions.

 

Could it be that, as alleged, Talbot voted against the survey therefore the likes of you don't want anything rocking the boat to upset your status as big baws of the West. I think that may be closer to the reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

 

Question not answered, just more bluster as usual.

 

There is no chance of this ever being what it should if there are folk like you involved Burnie , that was as comprehensive answer as anyone could expect, but you don't even consider it.

[Che Dail]

20 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Honestly, I do sometimes despair. We currently have a set up that was organised in a hurry, and without going over the points again, surely now is the time to address this. Your haste to get west clubs into the pyramid as is sounds a tad desperate and in my opinion would only antagonise. We would then end up precisely where we were when the LL was accelerated,  creating disparity and inappropriate clubs fast tracked resulting in a real question mark over the actual quality and a build up of resentment. So, if you really want a proper pyramid set up with clubs actually finding their level perhaps now is the time to lay those  foundations, starting with proper sensible dialog regarding getting the west and junior football involved. You my friend seem intent on stoking up the divide instead of realising that this could be an opportunity. So, to answer your question, to rush in would not be difficult as was proven in the past, the consequence however is a different story!   

After 5 years of the Lowland League, 45% of west junior clubs still don't support the pyramid - that's a divide.

Better for the 55% to get together for 'sensible dialogue' and create the WoS league now.

The pyramid is working, it's up to clubs to make a move.

[Burnie_man]

On the matter of LL West and LL East at tier 5, I think that has to come at some point down the line once all Junior clubs are on board and clubs have settled in the new environment and found their level.

A strong West and East league would, afterall, be stronger than the current LL and would better reflect the reality of the set up south of the Tay.

[Burnie_man]

There is no chance of this ever being what it should if there are folk like you involved Burnie , that was as comprehensive answer as anyone could expect, but you don't even consider it.

I gave you a simple solution, you haven't yet answered why it couldn't work. It would work but the simple fact is you don't want it to work for purely self interested reasons.

This is why anyone hoping the SJFA are going to lead them to the Pyramid are a little deluded.

[Burnie_man]

After 5 years of the Lowland League, 45% of west junior clubs still don't support the pyramid - that's a divide.
Better for the 55% to get together for 'sensible dialogue' and create the WoS league now.
The pyramid is working, it's up to clubs to make a move.

Precisely.