Junior football, what is the future?

[Goalie Hamish]

19 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

After 5 years of the Lowland League, 45% of west junior clubs still don't support the pyramid - that's a divide.

Better for the 55% to get together for 'sensible dialogue' and create the WoS league now.

The pyramid is working, it's up to clubs to make a move.

That’s it in an absolute nutshell. Nailed.

Problem for Isa is his club are in the 45% and he disnae like it being pointed out.

Anyway dinnae let a decent thread be derailed with his mediocre ramblings.

[LongTimeLurker]

Where are these 45% and 55% numbers coming from?

[Robert James]

23 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

After 5 years of the Lowland League, 45% of west junior clubs still don't support the pyramid - that's a divide.

Better for the 55% to get together for 'sensible dialogue' and create the WoS league now.

The pyramid is working, it's up to clubs to make a move.

Assuming the 55/45 split is correct, the SFA/EoSL should set up the WoSL, and invite applications for 2019/20. There is no need to rush for next season, and the West Region has already agreed a new (vertical) structure throughout. This time period would facilitate consultation on  structure (how many divisions, financial benefits, licensing, funding for ground improvements, etc), with all 'senior' clubs.

The SJFA 's future role would be to reorganise the remaining 45% of clubs who don't wish to be part of the pyramid. This could include comprehensive regionalisation for smaller clubs, to reduce costs, retain traditional rivalries, participate in the Junior Cup, etc. Whilst there would be no automatic promotion and relegation between the 2 set ups , Junior clubs would be free to apply  to fill vacancies, as and when they arise in the future. Likewise clubs struggling in the pyramid, could decide to go junior (or amateur), as at present.

Both 'sides' would be required by the SFA to give an undertaking to cooperate fully without prejudice against any clubs. However the SFA would also need to state clearly that it will not countenance TWO parallel Pyramid leagues in the East Region, nor elsewhere, either now or in the future.   

[AlanCamelonfan]

Only way forward is full scale merger.

 

West of Scotland football league

South of scotland league

Eosfl merger with east juniors. Either a season to decide which teams go where in joining up the league or as not sure where Tayside clubs come in. Would they fancy trips to Tweedmouth? With so many clubs you could have eosfl north and south. Tayside Fife and sauchie in North. The rest in South and sort out leagues below andndcordingly.   

4 way playoff for lowland league place or if it goes to two down. North vs east south and sosfl vs wosfl.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Funny to see fans of clubs which benefit massively from being the big fish in the junior pond so desperate for the status quo to maintain. There is absolutely no way charlatans like Scott Robertson and Tom Johnston should be allowed anywhere near the administration of a senior west league, they have proven themselves incompetent time and time again, no fixtures, no sponsors, nothing but a knees up for the blazers.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Only way forward is full scale merger.

 

West of Scotland football league

South of scotland league

Eosfl merger with east juniors. Either a season to decide which teams go where in joining up the league or as not sure where Tayside clubs come in. Would they fancy trips to Tweedmouth? With so many clubs you could have eosfl north and south. Tayside Fife and sauchie in North. The rest in South and sort out leagues below andndcordingly.   

4 way playoff for lowland league place or if it goes to two down. North vs east south and sosfl vs wosfl.

4 way play off for one league? Give yourself a shake man. 4 way play off?

[Goalie Hamish]

17 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Funny to see fans of clubs which benefit massively from being the big fish in the junior pond so desperate for the status quo to maintain. There is absolutely no way charlatans like Scott Robertson and Tom Johnston should be allowed anywhere near the administration of a senior west league, they have proven themselves incompetent time and time again, no fixtures, no sponsors, nothing but a knees up for the blazers.

Nailed it again.

No way should the SJFA be allowed to remain intact inside the pyramid and no way should they be allowed to run a parallel league in the east.

[cmontheloknow]

Is there any fixture software that can produce a fixture list that gives certain teams say 30 away games next season? Asking for a friend.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Is there any fixture software that can produce a fixture list that gives certain teams say 30 away games next season? Asking for a friend.

Yes the junior fa own it and refuse to use it, let your friend know.

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

4 way play off for one league? Give yourself a shake man. 4 way play off?

Why not 4 teams playoff for promotion spots in all Scottish and English leagues

[Guest]

So, the usual suspects jump all over this without actually understanding what is being debated. The Pyramid is not working, it exists that is not the same thing. As for fans of the big fish wanting the status quo, have you actually read any of my posts? A hell of a lot of people making a lot out of information which is no more than gossip, guess work and wishful thinking. Where did the 55% - 45% come from? Did they actually vote for a pyramid or was it the pyramid as is?

Again, just my opinion but I would not vote for what we have, but I am not against a pyramid, I suspect some clubs have a similar view. Until the significant deficiencies of the current pyramid are addressed, or some proposal to do this, big clubs in the west will not buy in. This dose not make them unambitious, big fish in small ponds or any of the other frankly inaccurate accusations. I personally think that it is time to join the up the non league and create a proper pyramid, got that? I have intimated it often enough! So, FFS read what I post and lets have a proper debate.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Guest

[VodkaTap]

19 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

So, the usual suspects jump all over this without actually understanding what is being debated. The Pyramid is not working, it exists that is not the same thing. As for fans of the big fish wanting the status quo, have you actually read any of my posts? A hell of a lot of people making a lot out of information which is no more than gossip, guess work and wishful thinking. Where did the 55% - 45% come from? Did they actually vote for a pyramid or was it the pyramid as is?

Again, just my opinion but I would not vote for what we have, but I am not against a pyramid, I suspect some clubs have a similar view. Until the significant deficiencies of the current pyramid are addressed, or some proposal to do this, big clubs in the west will not buy in. This dose not make them unambitious, big fish in small ponds or any of the other frankly inaccurate accusations. I personally think that it is time to join the up the non league and create a proper pyramid, got that? I have intimated it often enough! So, FFS read what I post and lets have a proper debate.

I have followed all the various threads on the pyramids with great interest.

I understand your distaste for the pyramid system as is, but I would appreciate if you lay out your proposals as to how the various non league systems could move from the current dogs dinner ( in your view ) we have at present, to how it should be - with a timescale too if possible.

Edited March 22, 2018 by VodkaTap

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

read what I post

No thanks.

[Ginaro]

6 hours ago, pipedreamer said:

7 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

 

Why the clamour of an east/west split at tier 5? That makes the lowland league a lot less attractive to anyone in tier 4. The travel once a season to Dundee from Ayrshire, borders to Glasgow etc isn’t a problem for most clubs at the moment. A semi national league below the national leagues is perfectly reasonable IMO. Below that you could split again to east/west/north then below that You split again to east north/south and west north/south. The higher you go the bigger the region is reasonable. 

The idea behind an east/west split at tier 5 would be to get some sort of balance with the number of clubs in each region. There's currently one play-off place for the 18 Highland League clubs, plus 34 North Juniors and 9 North Caledonian below (if they were to join the pyramid). Compare that to the same play-off place just now for 16 Lowland League clubs, 13 EoS, 15/16 SoS, 60 East Juniors and 64 West Juniors and you can see the disparity in how difficult it is to get to tier 4.

Three regions each with one a SPFL play-off chance would be better - 10th in League 2 go down, and then two play-off matches with 9th in L2, East, West and North champions in a draw. That way at least one region goes up each year. But I suppose it's catch 22 - until the Juniors get joined on to the pyramid there's no push for a change at tier 5 but without changes it limits the promotion chances for Juniors who join at tier 6.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Ginaro

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, Isabel Goudie said:

So, the usual suspects jump all over this without actually understanding what is being debated. The Pyramid is not working, it exists that is not the same thing.

It quite clearly is working, seeing as it has already promoted one side into the national league setup that has survived at a higher level, with the relegated team finding their place in a competitive setting at a regional level of the game. Not to mention that this success story comes from a Lowland League that was derided at the time by not including 'the big clubs' of the non-league scene - somehow it has coped. And now Junior teams are steadily slinking for the exit door within their dead-end setup for leagues associated with the pyramid setup. On every front then it has been a major success and is working as its proponents intended. 

If you want a proper debate, you should stop probably stop making such utterly ridiculous assertions without facts to back them up. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by vikingTON

[Glenconner]

11 minutes ago, virginton said:

It quite clearly is working, seeing as it has already promoted one side into the national league setup that has survived at a higher level, with the relegated team finding their place in a competitive setting at a regional level of the game. Not to mention that this success story comes from a Lowland League that was derided at the time by not including 'the big clubs' of the non-league scene - somehow it has coped. And now Junior teams are steadily slinking for the exit door within their dead-end setup for leagues associated with the pyramid setup. On every front then it has been a major success and is working as its proponents intended. 

If you want a proper debate, you should stop probably stop making such utterly ridiculous assertions without facts to back them up. 

Supports Morton ffs.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Supports Morton ffs.

A well supported championship team?

[kenny131]

44 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Supports Morton ffs.

Who are light years ahead of anything in the juniors 

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Only way forward is full scale merger.

 

West of Scotland football league

South of scotland league

Eosfl merger with east juniors. Either a season to decide which teams go where in joining up the league or as not sure where Tayside clubs come in. Would they fancy trips to Tweedmouth? With so many clubs you could have eosfl north and south. Tayside Fife and sauchie in North. The rest in South and sort out leagues below andndcordingly.   

4 way playoff for lowland league place or if it goes to two down. North vs east south and sosfl vs wosfl.

Yes to the East merger, but the SFA will not permit it to be under the SJFA banner.

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

The idea behind an east/west split at tier 5 would be to get some sort of balance with the number of clubs in each region. There's currently one play-off place for the 18 Highland League clubs, plus 34 North Juniors and 9 North Caledonian below (if they were to join the pyramid). Compare that to the same play-off place just now for 16 Lowland League clubs, 13 EoS, 15/16 SoS, 60 East Juniors and 64 West Juniors and you can see the disparity in how difficult it is to get to tier 4.

Three regions each with one a SPFL play-off chance would be better - 10th in League 2 go down, and then two play-off matches with 9th in L2, East, West and North champions in a draw. That way at least one region goes up each year. But I suppose it's catch 22 - until the Juniors get joined on to the pyramid there's no push for a change at tier 5 but without changes it limits the promotion chances for Juniors who join at tier 6.

The SPFL clubs would never vote for this. It was difficult getting the current play-off arrangement, with the Highland/Lowland winners.

Look at England, where the pyramid is straightforward, and has worked at Tier 5 (national). Even at Tier 6, there are only 2 feeder leagues (North & South).  The above  suggestion would be chaotic whether now, or in the future, and won't happen.

Why are West Juniors worried about playing against Lowland sides in the pyramid ? It just looks like status quo, status quo, status quo...................ie: stay with the juniors, but give us the full benefits of SFA Membership and licensing, whilst we retain our SJFA badges, structure, and West leagues !