Junior football, what is the future?

[Hillonearth]

33 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

If they go for (2) it's another month of speculation over who else might join the SoSFL as the deadline for them isn't until the 30th April. That's more than enough time for the  rest of the West to consider their options, you wouldn't know who would follow.

Might be sticking my neck out here, but I’m fairly certain the SoS could extend the deadline to the 12^th of never and still not receive any applications from Junior clubs.

The only potential move that would have made an iota of sense geographically was Kello Rovers, and that rumour has been categorically scotched.

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, Deeside Dynamo said:

No it's not, it's 31 March the same as the East of Scotland league.

From the SoSFL Constitution on their website.

http://www.southofscotlandfootballleague.co.uk/LeagueDocuments

Written applications by April 30th.

[Robert James]

4 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Might be sticking my neck out here, but I’m fairly certain the SoS could extend the deadline to the 12^th of never and still not receive any applications from Junior clubs.

The only potential move that would have made an iota of sense geographically was Kello Rovers, and that rumour has been categorically scotched.

The "other" potential move could be Girvan applying to  (re)join the SoSL.  Very quiet on that front, except that they are apparently looking for a new manager.

[Deeside Dynamo]

6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

From the SoSFL Constitution on their website.

http://www.southofscotlandfootballleague.co.uk/LeagueDocuments

Written applications by April 30th.

Aye, I forgot they changed it last year! 

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Hillonearth said:

Might be sticking my neck out here, but I’m fairly certain the SoS could extend the deadline to the 12^th of never and still not receive any applications from Junior clubs.

The only potential move that would have made an iota of sense geographically was Kello Rovers, and that rumour has been categorically scotched.

Currently they stand at 15 clubs and Wigtown are rumoured to be returning next year as well. If you stick with just the 15 though.  You could have 10 clubs in a South Division. Then Bonnyton Thistle, Nithsdale Wanderers, Upper Annandale, Mid-Annandale, Lochmaben and Cydebank in the North Division just needing 4 more clubs to get an equal number of 10. BSC Glasgow Reserves maybe, Glasgow Uni & Girvan are usually rumoured for these types of things due to their licences. Then you're just looking for one other.

However it goes the SoSFL might have to consider their options in what format they take next year if Wigtown & Clydebank join and others follow.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Deeside Dynamo said:

Aye, I forgot they changed it last year! 

No worries. I'm only aware of it because I went looking after the EoSFL deadline became more well known.

[Robert James]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Currently they stand at 15 clubs and Wigtown are rumoured to be returning next year as well. If you stick with just the 15 though.  You could have 10 clubs in a South Division. Then Bonnyton Thistle, Nithsdale Wanderers, Upper Annandale, Mid-Annandale, Lochmaben and Cydebank in the North Division just needing 4 more clubs to get an equal number of 10. BSC Glasgow Reserves maybe, Glasgow Uni & Girvan are usually rumoured for these types of things due to their licences. Then you're just looking for one other.

However it goes the SoSFL might have to consider their options in what format they take next year if Wigtown & Clydebank join and others follow.

This could work, if the West Juniors reject a new WoSL . This would then need a West junior club to  "do a Kelty"  and replicate what's happening in the East.  Also, Strathclyde Uni might be interested, and East Kilbride Res/Dev XI might be another (?)

Unfortunately it would guarantee hundreds more 'Pie Shop' posts from Junior fans, protesting about "no consultation"  again !! And of course, the SJFA could have apoplexy.   

[Hillonearth]

8 minutes ago, Robert James said:

This could work, if the West Juniors reject a new WoSL . This would then need a West junior club to  "do a Kelty"  and replicate what's happening in the East.  Also, Strathclyde Uni might be interested, and East Kilbride Res/Dev XI might be another (?)

Unfortunately it would guarantee hundreds more 'Pie Shop' posts from Junior fans, protesting about "no consultation"  again !! And of course, the SJFA could have apoplexy.   

Basically, the Juniors won’t “reject” a WoSL – should there be a majority of clubs unwilling to commit for the start of the season after next, those that are willing will simply leave them to it and go ahead and form one.

It won’t involve the SoSL, who seem to be getting dragged into this debate despite being very much on the margins.

[Deeside Dynamo]

10 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Basically, the Juniors won’t “reject” a WoSL – should there be a majority of clubs unwilling to commit for the start of the season after next, those that are willing will simply leave them to it and go ahead and form one.

It won’t involve the SoSL, who seem to be getting dragged into this debate despite being very much on the margins.

It should involve the SoSFL as, whether any of the juniors like it or not they are part of the current pyramid system and they should l be entitled to a say on what happens and I can't see any other reason not to involve them other than one of sheer arrogance on the part of some of those clubs who want to move on.  I have a feeling that some clubs are wanting to get to the LL as soon as possible and setting up a WoSFL allows them to circumvent the current system to suit their own ends.

[cmontheloknow]

5 minutes ago, Deeside Dynamo said:

It should involve the SoSFL as, whether any of the juniors like it or not they are part of the current pyramid system and they should l be entitled to a say on what happens and I can't see any other reason not to involve them other than one of sheer arrogance on the part of some of those clubs who want to move on.  I have a feeling that some clubs are wanting to get to the LL as soon as possible and setting up a WoSFL allows them to circumvent the current system to suit their own ends.

The South of Scotland League is not fit for purpose as a feeder to the LL and I say that as a fan of football in that region. It's crazy to expect a club from say Stirlingshire like Dunipace to travel down there for a league game, or for those clubs to have to come up. Ok, Dunipace will perhaps get their trip to Kello next season but it's not a trip they'd make every 2nd week. An influx of Glasgow area teams would markedly alter the characteristics of a league for, in the main, D&G sides. And how many of those SoS sides are in any position to get licenced AND want promotion?

[Hillonearth]

27 minutes ago, Deeside Dynamo said:

It should involve the SoSFL as, whether any of the juniors like it or not they are part of the current pyramid system and they should l be entitled to a say on what happens and I can't see any other reason not to involve them other than one of sheer arrogance on the part of some of those clubs who want to move on.  I have a feeling that some clubs are wanting to get to the LL as soon as possible and setting up a WoSFL allows them to circumvent the current system to suit their own ends.

Which comes back to the fundamental question of whether you actually want a truly functional pyramid or not. As things stand there’s zero chance of any West clubs signing up for the SoS, a league that covers a completely different area of the country, but nevertheless was co-opted to ostensibly act as a feeder for the West. Up until now it has been an impasse.

Now we finally seem to have a light at the end of the tunnel and appear to be inching towards something that reflects the reality of the non-league game, only to be told “Oh, no – that’s the way things are and they shouldn’t be tinkered with.”

And we’re meant to be the ones afraid of change…

Edited March 23, 2018 by Hillonearth

[Deeside Dynamo]

4 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

The South of Scotland League is not fit for purpose as a feeder to the LL and I say that as a fan of football in that region. It's crazy to expect a club from say Stirlingshire like Dunipace to travel down there for a league game, or for those clubs to have to come up. Ok, Dunipace will perhaps get their trip to Kello next season but it's not a trip they'd make every 2nd week. An influx of Glasgow area teams would markedly alter the characteristics of a league for, in the main, D&G sides. And how many of those SoS sides are in any position to get licenced AND want promotion?

I agree with you in the main but it's a double edged sword.  The standard of the league may not be the greatest but would an influx of clubs from the south of Glasgow for example greatly enhance the product?  As for the travelling, you'd like to think that if the product improves and with some of the clubs involved being better supported than the South clubs gates may increase which would negate the argument of the costs associated. 

Out of the four clubs that are licensed I'd imagine that Threave Rovers may be keen although I'm not sure about the others. It really depends on how progressive thinking they are although if they don't move with the times there is an argument that the clubs may die altogether. 

[FairWeatherFan]

47 minutes ago, Robert James said:

This could work, if the West Juniors reject a new WoSL . This would then need a West junior club to  "do a Kelty"  and replicate what's happening in the East.  Also, Strathclyde Uni might be interested, and East Kilbride Res/Dev XI might be another (?)

Unfortunately it would guarantee hundreds more 'Pie Shop' posts from Junior fans, protesting about "no consultation"  again !! And of course, the SJFA could have apoplexy.   

I think Clydebank will very much be the Kelty test case next year for the clubs in the West. You're already seeing Kilwinning be very public with their discussion of all the options, while 'EoSFL West Region' stole the headlines 'SJFA' was the agenda topic below for the supporter's meeting they just had.

Whatever Clydebank do is likely to instigate some sort of adjustment to Tier 6. I still don't see how promotion will work if there are 3 equal feeders and despite everything I don't see the SoSFL giving up their status. So seeing a a Northern Division to the SoSFL seems a good way to go. Then the best  of the North & South go on to form the WoSFL at Tier 6 with the SoSFL slipping down a tier through evolution rather than revolution .

[Deeside Dynamo]

3 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

 

Now we finally seem to have a light at the end of the tunnel and appear to be inching towards something that reflects the reality of the non-league game, only to be told “Oh, no – that’s the way things are and they shouldn’t be tinkered with.”

And we’re meant to be the ones afraid of change…

Whoa there. I've not said at any point I'm against it, in fact far from it as I think that the change will be good for the game and it's been a long time coming.

I'd imagine that some clubs in the SoSFL are afraid but the ones with a wee bit more foresight are wary of change purely due to the finances and costs involved as it's not easy in the D&G area to source funding due to the demographics.  However, they'll also realise the ramifications of not moving and would anyone want a club to fold on their watch?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Mediocre

Yes, in the same way that Talbot are mediocre!

[cmontheloknow]

20 minutes ago, Deeside Dynamo said:

I agree with you in the main but it's a double edged sword.  The standard of the league may not be the greatest but would an influx of clubs from the south of Glasgow for example greatly enhance the product?  As for the travelling, you'd like to think that if the product improves and with some of the clubs involved being better supported than the South clubs gates may increase which would negate the argument of the costs associated. 

Out of the four clubs that are licensed I'd imagine that Threave Rovers may be keen although I'm not sure about the others. It really depends on how progressive thinking they are although if they don't move with the times there is an argument that the clubs may die altogether. 

But it shouldn't come to them dying. They should be at a level that they can prosper. That is the purpose of the pyramid. *IF* we were starting from scratch, a rural (mainly amateur in terms of player status) league from one of Scotland's least  populated regions would not be immediately below a semi-national league. The clubs within it cannot afford that next step and Threave were relegated out of the LL having not that long before resigned from the EoS for travel difficulties. 

The South set-up would benefit from feeding a West of Scotland-wide division (such as the West Super First) and any clubs able to play more widely could work their way up to the LL.

Personally, I don't think gates would improve should the big Junior sides come in. Not all have large supports that would travel so far - maybe as a one off perhaps. I was at Wigtown v Talbot in the Scottish Cup, from memory about 200 were there. I'd been to Wigtown before for a derby with Newton and the crowd was smaller but not significantly. At the Talbot game there were a few more around the other sides. 

Wigtown v Newton 4/4/15

Wigtown v Auchinleck 13/8/16

Edited March 23, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Burnie_man]

A WoSFL is undoubtedly required to “complete” the Pyramid, of that there is no doubt.

Where would the SoSFL fit into this? Well we have to look at the fact that its member clubs are pretty reluctant to head to the LL.  Threave withdrew a couple of seasons back, and if rumours are to be believed St.Cuthberts delayed their Licence in order to avoid promotion. Also, look at how fragile Wigtown were, withdrawing completely after being a leading club. I get the impression that the Licenced clubs are Licenced only to safeguard their SFA membership and Scottish Cup entry, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Perhaps once a WoSFL becomes reality, the SoSFL seeks integration with it in some form, rather than remaining a stand-alone league with direct entry into LL play-offs which they don’t seem to want (and to be honest, their quality maybe doesn’t warrant).  

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

A WoSFL is undoubtedly required to “complete” the Pyramid, of that there is no doubt.

Where would the SoSFL fit into this? Well we have to look at the fact that its member clubs are pretty reluctant to head to the LL.  Threave withdrew a couple of seasons back, and if rumours are to be believed St.Cuthberts delayed their Licence in order to avoid promotion. Also, look at how fragile Wigtown were, withdrawing completely after being a leading club. I get the impression that the Licenced clubs are Licenced only to safeguard their SFA membership and Scottish Cup entry, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Perhaps once a WoSFL becomes reality, the SoSFL seeks integration with it in some form, rather than remaining a stand-alone league with direct entry into LL play-offs which they don’t seem to want (and to be honest, their quality maybe doesn’t warrant).  

Burnie Man, I agree, but with one caveat, namely that the SFA should consult with the SoSL about it becoming a WoSL 'feeder' league, and if any of its (licensed) clubs, eg Threave who were one of the founder members of the SLL, rekindles its ambition and seeks to join the new West league, they should be guaranteed entry in 2019/20 alongside those West Juniors who commit to the pyramid.  

I am also encouraged by the Maryhill views (above) that junior clubs which now support the pyramid, will go it alone in 2019/20 if there is no agreement on a West feeder league before then. 

[craigkillie]

Ideally, I think you'd see a West of Scotland feeder league at Tier 6, incorporating clubs from D&G, Ayrshire, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Glasgow, Dunbartonshire and perhaps some of Stirlingshire.  I'd say that West Lothian, Falkirk and Clackmannanshire would probably be East, but that would possibly be something to debate.

Below that, you could either have another region-wide league at Tier 7 (ie a West of Scotland Division 2), or you could have a two-way split, with Ayrshire, Renfrewshire, South Lanarkshire and D&G in the "South-West" region and the rest in a "North-East" region.  I'd say that the natural place for the South of Scotland league would be below that at Tier 8, along with an Ayrshire league, Glasgow league etc.  Some of the teams currently in the South of Scotland would certainly be playing above Tier 8 and would have a bit of increased travel, but it wouldn't be as far as the likes of Threave had to do in the Lowland League or East of Scotland.

That sort of stuff will take time to develop, so at the moment the key is just getting everything integrated in a way that keeps everyone reasonably happy.  Leaving the South of Scotland at Tier 6 for now might do that, but as has been mentioned above, I don't think even most of the clubs in the league are really hugely bothered about playing at a higher level, for now at least.

Edited March 23, 2018 by craigkillie

[Deeside Dynamo]

23 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

A WoSFL is undoubtedly required to “complete” the Pyramid, of that there is no doubt.

Where would the SoSFL fit into this? Well we have to look at the fact that its member clubs are pretty reluctant to head to the LL.  Threave withdrew a couple of seasons back, and if rumours are to be believed St.Cuthberts delayed their Licence in order to avoid promotion. Also, look at how fragile Wigtown were, withdrawing completely after being a leading club. I get the impression that the Licenced clubs are Licenced only to safeguard their SFA membership and Scottish Cup entry, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Perhaps once a WoSFL becomes reality, the SoSFL seeks integration with it in some form, rather than remaining a stand-alone league with direct entry into LL play-offs which they don’t seem to want (and to be honest, their quality maybe doesn’t warrant).  

Times and, indeed clubs, change.  At the time, the clubs you mention. maybe weren't in a position to move forward and embrace the pyramid but maybe, and hopefully, they can see the bigger picture now.  I do think, though, that the SoSFL has to evolve or it will dissolve.