Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Now we are getting a clearer idea if where you are going with this, your turn I see.

 

It was obvious last night.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

How do they know they are going to lose it. You may find you increase attendances on a game that might have been nothing but could be a top of conference game. Lithgae vs camelon 415 and 602 last season in the juniors it was 300-350 in recent yrs 

This is a really good point. In each conference there were 3-4 teams pushing to win it for most of the season (ok maybe not Bonnyrigg's), so you had about 9 clubs in the hunt. I'm sure all of them had gates boosted, especially when they played each other. We had bigger gates against Camelon, Jeanfield and Broxburn than we would have had if we'd been tottering along at the top of mid-table. The idea that the conference system is some big money loser is probably mince.

 

1 hour ago, Killiepiyo said:

Football aside, How would you sell it to supporters that their club will lose substantial amounts of money and players, so that civil service and who ever else can get big gates for a while? 

WTF have Civil Service Strollers got to do with anything??? Seriously, was that the only non-league senior club you could think of? Do you not know that they 1) play in the Lowland League and 2) are from Edinburgh???

 

[GordonS]

9 minutes ago, Killiepiyo said:

No you'd want an equal platform, not everyone else inside the place all armed with vetos. 

The SJFA exercised their veto. They didn't join the pyramid and nobody - not even the SFA - could make them.

You don't just want a veto. You want a gun.

[Killiepiyo]

Just now, GordonS said:

This is a really good point. In each conference there were 3-4 teams pushing to win it for most of the season (ok maybe not Bonnyrigg's), so you had about 9 clubs in the hunt. I'm sure all of them had gates boosted, especially when they played each other. We had bigger gates against Camelon, Jeanfield and Broxburn than we would have had if we'd been tottering along at the top of mid-table. The idea that the conference system is some big money loser is probably mince.

 

WTF have Civil Service Strollers got to do with anything??? Seriously, was that the only non-league senior club you could think of? Do you not know that they 1) play in the Lowland League and 2) are from Edinburgh???

 

If you read my next post you see me saying I could have picked a better example. Unlike some on here I'm not claiming to be an expert, have anyside inside knowledge or anything other than being someone who is asking questions or questioning the apperent universal truth/way of things. Taking an absolute barrage of abuse in the process but that in itself is insightful enough to keep me interested. 

[Guest]

No you'd want an equal platform, not everyone else inside the place all armed with vetos. 

So what you are proposing, just so we are all clear is the following:

The association who walked away from the inception of the LL structure (pyramid) because they thought they were better than it should have an equal say.

Even though for years they have and continue to undermine and throw dirt at the pyramid. Only now when their clubs have pretty much talked with their feet they want to 'renegotiate'.

You want the associations who have worked tirelessly to make the pyramid better to allow the sjfa a say in how the pyramid works to the detriment of their own clubs because the juniors arent happy not having a say...the very associations they have undermined for years.

And now the sjfa aren't getting their way, their scare tactics and lies aren't washing anymore so we are to forgo the previous 10 years and welcome them with open arms?

[Doonhamer1969]

1 hour ago, surely not! said:

 

Not the LL, it’s the WoSL.

 

Which will be run by the LL.....

[Doonhamer1969]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

Totally agree - there was plenty speculation and good (different) ideas on potential solutions for the East - I think the EoS league guys came up with the conference model and it stuck... just playing it out for one season too many, as it happens, but it worked initially. 

People should come at it again with open minds because there might be a completely different approach that works for the majority.

Sure they'll know more once notes of interest are converted into firm applications.

Exactly ,open mind .

[parsforlife]

9 minutes ago, Killiepiyo said:

No you'd want an equal platform, not everyone else inside the place all armed with vetos. 

Well tough shit. The SJFA have played their hand terribly and find themselves in a tough position to force anything.  You were given an equal platform 20 years ago and fucked it, you’ve got to play things as they stand and not how you’d want them to be.

 

[Killiepiyo]

2 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Well tough shit. The SJFA have played their hand terribly and find themselves in a tough position to force anything.  You were given an equal platform 20 years ago and fucked it, you’ve got to play things as they stand and not how you’d want them to be.

 

He was asking what I thought, Like to remind folk that I'm not the sjfa nor have any connection to them.  While I'm being accused of having some mad agenda, I'm concerned  the hatred on display here is beyond seething. That makes me think that any negation would have arguably been futile so it seems lazy to say it's all one parties fault. 

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, wow-wee said:

There's two ways you can look at conference leagues the premier club's finances may be down for a season or two so will have to cut their cloth  to suit? But the so called lesser club's will get a boost from increased attendances so it's not all doom and gloom . Also what you will find moving association's is not about one of two season's it about long term stability in an association that shows it cares and is willing to help their member club's thrive.

From what I have read on here, I anticipate that there will be a lot of questions from the clubs on Thursday, about WoSL conferences, as proposed by the LL. There are good arguments "for" and "against" this proposal. It will be an interesting debate on the night.

[Dev]

2 hours ago, morley said:

Totally agree with Longtime Lurker. let's be clear the pyramid agreements arent just a set of club rules, they are legally binding commercial contracts. One between the SFA, SPFL, LL, and HL, covering entry into the Spfl, and the other between the SFA, LL, EoS, and SoS for entry into the LL. Both are worded so that all parties are equal with no clause built in which allows any new party to be brought in with out the full agreement of all parties, or even a clause which allows any party to leave the agreements. The LL, EOS, and SoS have a veto for entry into the LL. Any move by the SFA to put something in place outside of either agreement would open up to breach of contract. The SFA have so far shown no appetite to do anything other than act as a facilitator and so can't now see them having appetite to lead any renegotiation of the current agreements. 

Particularly at a time when west Tier 6 coverage is just a few months away via an organisation which has a positive track record and attitude regarding Pyramid matters. It's the easy option now to get what they wanted ten years ago. They are not going to blow this for the sake of any Junior group.

[Guest Moomintroll]

Why is it hard for you to imagine that going to your clubs supporters saying for example, we will lose upwards of X amount in the first year if we go for this opition however in year three we may claw that back... might not be applauded? 

Ok then, stay with the Juniors but don't moan when you have to join the Pyramid at Tier 9 because "134 years of tradishun".

[glensmad]

From what I have read on here, I anticipate that there will be a lot of questions from the clubs on Thursday, about WoSL conferences, as proposed by the LL. There are good arguments "for" and "against" this proposal. It will be an interesting debate on the night.

I doubt that debate will take place on Thursday night, it should and probably will be kept for the April meeting of clubs who have actually submitted an application.

[Killiepiyo]

4 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

1 hour ago, Killiepiyo said:

Why is it hard for you to imagine that going to your clubs supporters saying for example, we will lose upwards of X amount in the first year if we go for this opition however in year three we may claw that back... might not be applauded? 

Ok then, stay with the Juniors but don't moan when you have to join the Pyramid at Tier 9 because "134 years of tradishun".

What is with folks tendancy to attriubute things on here? Folk so wrapped up with the hate not seeing the whole bloody picture. That is an actual situation that will likely occur, How that is addressed is key to getting clubs and fans on board.

[clash city rocker]

3 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

I didn't realise that the medal came with full detail on the Lowland League's feeder league criteria and governance process.

That's because you don't have one lol 

[Killiepiyo]

6 minutes ago, glensmad said:

24 minutes ago, Robert James said:

From what I have read on here, I anticipate that there will be a lot of questions from the clubs on Thursday, about WoSL conferences, as proposed by the LL. There are good arguments "for" and "against" this proposal. It will be an interesting debate on the night.

I doubt that debate will take place on Thursday night, it should and probably will be kept for the April meeting of clubs who have actually submitted an application.

That is something i'd want to know as soon as possible. Based on that, the more information the WOSL can bring to those listening the better, would speculate this will be key information in terms of the actual running proposals for your larger supported clubs.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, surely not! said:

 

Not the LL, it’s the WoSL.

 

In the first season, at least, it will be a Lowland League Tier 6 division or Conferences. It will become an independent league thereafter.

[parsforlife]

10 minutes ago, glensmad said:

27 minutes ago, Robert James said:

From what I have read on here, I anticipate that there will be a lot of questions from the clubs on Thursday, about WoSL conferences, as proposed by the LL. There are good arguments "for" and "against" this proposal. It will be an interesting debate on the night.

I doubt that debate will take place on Thursday night, it should and probably will be kept for the April meeting of clubs who have actually submitted an application.

I suspected any query over league structure will be answered with a fairly stock phrase.  ‘The board can not recommend any particular league structure, this will be decided once all applications have been received, discussed and agreed upon by the clubs involved ‘

[Dev]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

Let's flip that round.

You're only happy negotiating where you have more power than everyone else.

This is the attitude the SJFA took and it's why they're about to be gutted.

The point about a negotiation is that everyone gives and takes. All the WRSJFA had to do to become the feeder from tier 6 down in the west was align registration, discipline etc with the rest. LL, EOS, SoS, HL, SFA all agreed. Everyone except the SFA (who had no power) had the same amount of power, because each need to agree. The SJFA refused, even though a clear majority of WRSJFA clubs had voted to join the pyramid.

Things dragged on through more PWG meetings until it became clear to all concerned that the SJFA weren't going to agree unless everyone else gave them everything they wanted, including a parallel league at tier 6 in the east, which was obviously unacceptable. So they wrapped up the PWG and the LL made their offer to WRSJFA clubs who wanted to move on.

That's why we are where we are. 

The Lowland League was approached by west Junior clubs first of all and then became active in the creation of the Tier 6 Pyramid structure in the west for 2020/21.

[GNU_Linux]

The Lowland League was approached by west Junior clubs first of all and then became active in the creation of the Tier 6 Pyramid structure in the west for 2020/21.

How many clubs?