Junior football, what is the future?

[Glenconner]

5 minutes ago, rednblack said:

See this is the thing the post two above ah it was great in the day, it was but then he says he will still go now and take a few games in. Now is that for nostalgia sake or something and really he thinks it's absolute rubbish ?

Make no mistake about it junior football is still a cracking grade of football when you boil it down to the actual game itself and what it serves up and it value for money. Still having that in this day in age is no easy feat.
Yes it needs more change yes it needs better leadership but when you have the basics going for you then you will always have something to work with and worth keeping.

For less than the price of a packet of 20 cigs the Juniors is a great deal. Slight problem is the public don't rate it enough in any numbers to go and watch it.

[Auld Heid]

41 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

For less than the price of a packet of 20 cigs the Juniors is a great deal. Slight problem is the public don't rate it enough in any numbers to go and watch it.

It certainly is - but unfortunately faced with a top game on Sky or making the efforts on a chilly winters day to go and watch.  Pretty clear what most folk are choosing.

TV football is killing the game on a Saturday afternoon - for many teams at all levels.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, rednblack said:

See this is the thing the post two above ah it was great in the day, it was but then he says he will still go now and take a few games in. Now is that for nostalgia sake or something and really he thinks it's absolute rubbish ?

Make no mistake about it junior football is still a cracking grade of football when you boil it down to the actual game itself and what it serves up and it value for money. Still having that in this day in age is no easy feat.
Yes it needs more change yes it needs better leadership but when you have the basics going for you then you will always have something to work with and worth keeping.

Tinto isn’t saying the game isn’t worth watching, nobody is, what he’s saying is the organisation is well out of date and it needs to move with the times and embrace change.  He’s spot on of course.

In fact, the clubs we support are held back by the piss poor 1950’s organisation we have to endure.

[Burnie_man]

45 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

TV football is killing the game on a Saturday afternoon - for many teams at all levels.

Imagine if all clubs had floodlights and we could kick-off at 3.00pm every Saturday and not have to compete with 12.30 TV kick-offs in winter.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Burnie_man

[santheman]

2 hours ago, rednblack said:

See this is the thing the post two above ah it was great in the day, it was but then he says he will still go now and take a few games in. Now is that for nostalgia sake or something and really he thinks it's absolute rubbish ?

Make no mistake about it junior football is still a cracking grade of football when you boil it down to the actual game itself and what it serves up and it value for money. Still having that in this day in age is no easy feat.
Yes it needs more change yes it needs better leadership but when you have the basics going for you then you will always have something to work with and worth keeping.

As Mark Twain said   "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated".

As you say RnB the basics are there, a reasonably good standard of football at a reasonable cost. The changes we need will happen slowly but surely (maybe not as fast as some on here would like right enough) but they WILL happen.

Until the pyramid gets it act together and makes itself a more attractive proposition then I'm quite happy riding that dinosaur along my glass ceiling at least until it becomes exctint.

 

[Burnie_man]

Just now, santheman said:

Until the pyramid gets it act together and makes itself a more attractive proposition then I'm quite happy riding that dinosaur along my glass ceiling at least until it becomes exctint.

 

The SFA ie "The Pyramid" are not going to invest time in a futile exercise in trying to attract Junior clubs unless Junior clubs indicate they want to take part and help shape it into something better.

What changes will make it a more attractive proposition for you? Sitting on the sidelines flinging shite will not bring about the change you want. 

 

[clash city rocker]

14 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The SFA ie "The Pyramid" are not going to invest time in a futile exercise in trying to attract Junior clubs unless Junior clubs indicate they want to take part and help shape it into something better.

What changes will make it a more attractive proposition for you? Sitting on the sidelines flinging shite will not bring about the change you want. 

 

No but the SFA could abolish the junior grade. Imagine that lol

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, clash city rocker said:

No but the SFA could abolish the junior grade. Imagine that lol

If only

[Glenconner]

8 hours ago, Auld Heid said:

It certainly is - but unfortunately faced with a top game on Sky or making the efforts on a chilly winters day to go and watch.  Pretty clear what most folk are choosing.

TV football is killing the game on a Saturday afternoon - for many teams at all levels.

Funnily enough i was just browsing the The Juniors - 100 Years book and there's mention of a the decline of Larkhall Thistle in 1950.

1, The drawing power of Celtic, Rangers and Motherwell 

2, Larkhall and Royal Albert should amalgamate

3, The local miners prefer the greyhound racing

There was even reports of Junior league games in Ayrshire during the 1950s of no paying customers turning up.

The fact that the Juniors are still around is probably a shock in itself and the debates in the 21st Century are as old as the hills.

[garrellburn]

15 hours ago, Glenconner said:

There was even reports of Junior league games in Ayrshire during the 1950s of no paying customers turning up.

There was a very healthy attendance, but they had all came in over the wall!

[tinto]

I am old enough to remember the games in the 1950's. Many are featured in my book from a few years back called 'A time in Govan'. The Junior clubs generally had big crowds at many of their matches. My club Benburb had 20,000 for the visit of Bo'ness United in 1953. Tinto Park often had four figure crowds and they took good support to the away matches. Each of the three shipyards provided a coachload of supporters. The biggest crowd I seen at Tinto Park was when Ardeer Thistle came in 1960. I seemed like half of Ayrshire were at the match which the Bens won 2-0. St.Anthony's also had decent support and took a trainload of supporters to a match in Ayrshire; leaving from Ibrox Station !. When John Quigley played they packed out Moore Park in a great run to the SJC quarter final where from memory they lost to Kilsyth Rangers.

It is true there were a few matches where there were little or no crowd with some clubs. Poor old Strathclyde had one match with Blantyre Celtic where the crowd was zero. The weather was appalling and although a couple from Blantyre arrived late they were let in free to Springfield Park.

Going back to the question posed. Yes I travel up to watch matches out of nostalgia. However I still have the same passion for the club that I had all those years ago. For Scottish football and not just junior football to succeed IMHO it must evolve with time and be more ambitious. Over the years I feel that 'Junior fitba' is caught in a time warp. Lets hope that things eventually sort themselves out.

[garrellburn]

As Tinto has recounted, junior games could attract quite unbelievable (to moidern fans) crowds in the late 40's and up till the end of the 50's. I think though that some of the figures quoted have to be taken with a pinch of salt, they are probably rather optomistic estimates in many cases. The first junior I gamei ever attended was Kilsyth v Broxburn in 1951, a sixth round tie and the crowd at Kilsyth was given as 8764, a ground record which still stands although we hope to beat it sometime soon (including the midges).The difference here is that we have photographic evidence to show how big the crowd was, and the fact that it is a precise number backs that up, Most visiting clubs provided gate checkers at that time.

By no means a record for junior football though, or even near it, Ashfield v Clydebank drew 26000 to a cup tie  about the same time and there is no doubt clubs such as Bo''ness, Irvine Meadow and Petershill regularly had five figure attendances. Irvine Meadow had a grand total of over 220000 view all the matches they were involved in during their Scottish cup run in, I think, 1947-48 season. They lost to Petershill at Hampden in 1951 in front of 71,000 spectators (officially), and you can take that figure with anolther shovelfull of salt, almost certainly an underestimate, as it was well known that there were scams operating with the turnstile staff at that time.

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by garrellburn

[The Mantis]

34 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

As Tinto has recounted, junior games could attract quite unbelievable (to moidern fans) crowds in the late 40's and up till the end of the 50's. I think though that some of the figures quoted have to be taken with a pinch of salt, they are probably rather optomistic estimates in many cases. The first junior I gamei ever attended was Kilsyth v Broxburn in 1951, a sixth round tie and the crowd at Kilsyth was given as 8764, a ground record which still stands although we hope to beat it sometime soon (including the midges).The difference here is that we have photographic evidence to show how big the crowd was, and the fact that it is a precise number backs that up, Most visiting clubs provided gate checkers at that time.

By no means a record for junior football though, or even near it, Ashfield v Clydebank drew 26000 to a cup tie  about the same time and there is no doubt clubs such as Bo''ness, Irvine Meadow and Petershill regularly had five figure attendances. Irvine Meadow had a grand total of over 220000 view all the matches they were involved in during their Scottish cup run in, I think, 1947-48 season. They lost to Petershill at Hampden in 1951 in front of 71,000 spectators (officially), and you can take that figure with anolther shovelfull of salt, almost certainly an underestimate, as it was well known that there were scams operating with the turnstile staff at that time.

 

Can't match you Garrellburn but I was at the 1970 final and replay. Penicuik v Blantyre Vics, given as 19500 and 14225.

also the semi at Brockville, Penicuik v Ashfield, reported in the paper as 6000 although it seemed more to a young lad like me who later visited Brockville when it had 20000 reported for Falkirk v Rangers in the cup.

my first big match was Penicuik v Bonnyrigg at Tynecastle in the 1966 semi and I'd really like to know how many attended that one.

[Hillonearth]

26 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

As Tinto has recounted, junior games could attract quite unbelievable (to moidern fans) crowds in the late 40's and up till the end of the 50's. I think though that some of the figures quoted have to be taken with a pinch of salt, they are probably rather optomistic estimates in many cases. The first junior I gamei ever attended was Kilsyth v Broxburn in 1951, a sixth round tie and the crowd at Kilsyth was given as 8764, a ground record which still stands although we hope to beat it sometime soon (including the midges).The difference here is that we have photographic evidence to show how big the crowd was, and the fact that it is a precise number backs that up, Most visiting clubs provided gate checkers at that time.

By no means a record for junior football though, or even near it, Ashfield v Clydebank drew 26000 to a cup tie  about the same time and there is no doubt clubs such as Bo''ness, Irvine Meadow and Petershill regularly had five figure attendances. Irvine Meadow had a grand total of over 220000 view all the matches they were involved in during their Scottish cup run in, I think, 1947-48 season. They lost to Petershill at Hampden in 1951 in front of 71,000 spectators (officially), and you can take that figure with anolther shovelfull of salt, almost certainly an underestimate, as it was well known that there were scams operating with the turnstile staff at that time.

 

Some of the attendance figures from back then seem incredible, but you've got to look at it in context of society at the time.

Post-war, people started to have a bit more in the way of leisure time, but as yet there weren't all that many ways to spend it compared to today - going to local sporting events was one of the few outlets - attendance for things like greyhound racing and speedway were also astonishing by today's standards.

By maybe the early 1960s, the leisure industry had diversified into something more recognisable today - TV was commonplace, the modern music industry was taking shape with bands touring and recording, eating out was less rare, pubs were less male-dominated to give a few examples of things that started to compete for people's leisure time and money more - and attendances dropped as was always going to happen once there was less of a monopoly of things to do.

 

 

[rednblack]

What's talking about the 1940s 50s or 60s got to do with the future of junior football.

Not that pnb ever sticks to topic.

[Hillonearth]

1 minute ago, rednblack said:

What's talking about the 1940s 50s or 60s got to do with the future of junior football.

Not that pnb ever sticks to topic.

Think it was down to pointing out how some teams have always struggled for bodies through the gate regardless. There was that 10-15 year blip post-war where attendances seemed to go crazy, but like I was saying it was more a perfect storm of people having a bit more time and money but as yet not much to spend it on.

[Burnie_man]

10 minutes ago, rednblack said:

What's talking about the 1940s 50s or 60s got to do with the future of junior football.

Not that pnb ever sticks to topic.

 

Because a lot of people in the game still think it's that era, so it's useful to understand it in order to shake it off and move forwards.

[Burnie_man]

15 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Some of the attendance figures from back then seem incredible, but you've got to look at it in context of society at the time.

Post-war, people started to have a bit more in the way of leisure time, but as yet there weren't all that many ways to spend it compared to today - going to local sporting events was one of the few outlets - attendance for things like greyhound racing and speedway were also astonishing by today's standards.

By maybe the early 1960s, the leisure industry had diversified into something more recognisable today - TV was commonplace, the modern music industry was taking shape with bands touring and recording, eating out was less rare, pubs were less male-dominated to give a few examples of things that started to compete for people's leisure time and money more - and attendances dropped as was always going to happen once there was less of a monopoly of things to do.

 

 

Most record attendances for clubs in the old East Region were set in the 1950's, Armadale got over 11,000 for a game against Broxburn in the Scottish in 1955, Bo'ness an astonishing 17,900 v Irvine Meadow in 1950, Broxburn 11,400 v Kilsyth in 1952, Dunbar even got 5,300 v Armadale in 1953.

That said I have a note to say that Tranent's highest was 5,300 v Cumnock in 1972-73 season. Whitburn and Armadale also used to still attract four figure crowds well into the 1970's for big Scottish games. 

Linlithgow, Bo'ness and Bonnyrigg have attracted four figures for (senior) Scottish Cup games recently (and Junior Cup semis), but it's a very rare event now in the East.

[Glenconner]

10 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

Some of the attendance figures from back then seem incredible, but you've got to look at it in context of society at the time.

Post-war, people started to have a bit more in the way of leisure time, but as yet there weren't all that many ways to spend it compared to today - going to local sporting events was one of the few outlets - attendance for things like greyhound racing and speedway were also astonishing by today's standards.

By maybe the early 1960s, the leisure industry had diversified into something more recognisable today - TV was commonplace, the modern music industry was taking shape with bands touring and recording, eating out was less rare, pubs were less male-dominated to give a few examples of things that started to compete for people's leisure time and money more - and attendances dropped as was always going to happen once there was less of a monopoly of things to do.

 

 

Interesting how quickly the Junior cup final crowds fall off.

From 70,000+ in 1951 to 19,000 in 1970 and a complete drop ever since.

[Sunrise]

10 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Most record attendances for clubs in the old East Region were set in the 1950's, Armadale got over 11,000 for a game against Broxburn in the Scottish in 1955, Bo'ness an astonishing 17,900 v Irvine Meadow in 1950, Broxburn 11,400 v Kilsyth in 1952, Dunbar even got 5,300 v Armadale in 1953.

That said I have a note to say that Tranent's highest was 5,300 v Cumnock in 1972-73 season. Whitburn and Armadale also used to still attract four figure crowds well into the 1970's for big Scottish games. 

Linlithgow, Bo'ness and Bonnyrigg have attracted four figures for (senior) Scottish Cup games recently (and Junior Cup semis), but it's a very rare event now in the East.

I was reading the Cumbernauld United programme from our Scottish Junior Cup match in 1996-97 - before my time really as in my defense I was 6/7 - they note the previous round (second round) they won at Armadale in front of 850. Were Armadale a decent side at the time? I imagine that would be a strong crowd for any junior side before the semi-finals now (even the last four) - I'm aware this post risks going into crowd comparisons again...

Edited July 16, 2017 by Sunrise