Junior football, what is the future?

[Bankies Alive]

Do you think the people who run the SFA are forward thinkers? 

 

[Che Dail]

Just now, Sunrise said:

Not disagreeing ultimately but if you think it'll be easy, you haven't been to a West region meeting!

'Man sets no store by which he gained easily'  or something along those lines.

Anyway, if 16 West Region clubs aligned to form a new league and applied to the SFA for it to join the pyramid, pitched alongside the SoS instead of below it... would that work?

[Sunrise]

10 minutes ago, kilbowie2002 said:

Yes but its the fact that it is so difficult to make them see sense that will inevitably cause significant harm to the junior game.

I would clarify I don't mean the association is full of folk with bad ideas - that wouldn't be appropriate for me to say, nor is it true as every club has their own situation and story. What is the problem is showing sides how they can survive in a pyramid - at the AGM, a major point of contention was the (small) increase in games - small, but when we haven't decided what to do with the cups a legitimate fear. As there is next to no money in the game as well for ground work, facilities work etc, a pyramid (which would require these) is a tough sell to a heck of a lot of clubs at the moment, when the LL is concerned more so when most sides are far outwith its heartland. Don't forget though, league reconstruction passed 49 votes to 12, so clubs do see a bigger structure as the future at least. 

One of the main problems facing clubs IMO is the lack of new faces getting involved behind the scenes. Even when there younger folk, selling a junior football club or competition is very hard to sponsors etc when the game doesn't have the organisation it should have. The old East of Scotland seniors were very similar until a certain HibeeJibee took on the fixtures job 10 years ago. I could write a heck of a lot more, but its late tonight.

I've had a pint on my day off so perhaps I don't make as much sense as I thought I did.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Sunrise

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, Bankies Alive said:

Do you think the people who run the SFA are forward thinkers? 

 

Yes, they are - which is why they employed Henry McLeish to produce a wide-ranging vision for the game in Scotland - the pyramid formed part of his recommendations. 

It needs buy-in from the clubs to work though, the SFA isn't an 'authority body' that can force change.

[Bankies Alive]

4 minutes ago, kilbowie2002 said:

Far more so than the SJFA, they have fixture lists, dont have teams waiting 8 weeks to play their last fixture, have sponsors for their cups, actually invest in marketing. Its not perfect but in terms of actually taking action its all significantly more than is happening at this level? Again i'm fine if people are happy with the way things are but I want more for my club.

You're confusing the SPFL with the SFA.

Theres no point in going on about the pyramid for your club at the moment anyway as we don't have a club license.

i would suggest that you take the time to acquaint yourself with the clubs and where they play in the SoS league though.

We could play at the Reccy in it.

[Che Dail]

12 minutes ago, Bankies Alive said:

Theres no point in going on about the pyramid for your club at the moment anyway as we don't have a club license.

You don't need a license to be in the leagues which feed in to the LL, but without one you can't get promoted. To form a new league each club would need to commit to the pyramid.

LTHV couldn't progress last season because they don't have one, although they did get admitted to the Scottish Cup as winners of the EoS.  (If you do get licensed you'd be in the Scottish Cup regardless of which league you're in).

Edited July 18, 2017 by Che Dail

[Sergeant Wilson]

5 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Yes, they are - which is why they employed Henry McLeish to produce a wide-ranging vision for the game in Scotland - the pyramid formed part of his recommendations. 

It needs buy-in from the clubs to work though, the SFA isn't an 'authority body' that can force change.

I don't think mentioning that strengthens your argument. It was a poorly written, Ill conceived pile of horse shite. Which ideas would you adopt from it?

[Glenconner]

10 hours ago, Bankies Alive said:

One of about a dozen going by the games at Lochburn!

BSC are a joke club.Using money from coaching kids netball,football etc to finance a semi pro football team is laughable.

The club have never been anywhere near Broomhill! The folk that live their don't even know you exist.

How many season tickets do you sell? 

Sure somebody somewhere on here said Bsc ran a supporters bus from the Three Craws pub on Crow Rd.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Glenconner

[Che Dail]

3 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

I don't think mentioning that strengthens your argument. It was a poorly written, Ill conceived pile of horse shite. Which ideas would you adopt from it?

I quite like page 26, it starts with a quote:

Keep away from those who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you believe that you too can become great. Mark Twain

And goes on:

Setting audacious goals comes with inherent risks; not least failure or inability to deliver on the promise and the criticism that will inevitably follow. Yet, what is the point in compiling a new strategic plan that serves simply to accept mediocrity or embrace the average? Better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all? That quote strikes at the Calvinist trait prevalent in our society: not to dream too wildly for fear or being perceived as arrogant or mad.

 

Scottish football, as the national game, deserves better than to be given a cursory tidy-up. The reality of now is that the game is suffering the corrosive effects of decades of inertia, uncertainty, vested interest and apathy. The Scottish Football Association will be criticised whether it does nothing or tries too hard. Better the latter.

 

In order to convince the game’s other stakeholders we first had to convince ourselves. That done, the argument became compelling. For a game accused of being mired in self-interest, ‘what’s in it for us?’ seemed a good starting point in discussions with the great and good of the game. Not so much what’s in it for us as, what if…

[rednblack]

Let's face it in regards to Clydebank if it wasn't for the juniors yous would be playing at mount blow recreation park at best or even worse a bunch of guys sitting in the Lovat or where ever reminiscing about the old times with nobody to watch.

It's akin to falling ill, calling for the ambulance then when you wake up shouting f**k off i hate you at the nurses who saved you.

[Cyclizine]

 
To be fair (and you've written a lot of good things on the board the past year), would you expect clubs like my own to move en-masse, no matter how ambitious... when our minimum journey would be 80 miles return? I know that way of thinking perhaps sounds a bit simplistic, but look what's happened in the South of Scotland League the last few years with St Cuthbert and Wigtown.
 

See, this is a good example of why a pyramid system is a good idea: clubs that are feel they are ambitious enough to pay semiprofessionally in a regional division can, those who feel they are best served playing locally can too. Everyone finds their level. Yes, you're always going to have outliers in any league, but that's part and parcel of playing in a league. You can't deny a club in the peripheries competitive football because their grounds awkward to get to once a season.

Although a relatively poor standard, the SoSFL is, as far as the SFA is concerned, the senior division covering the West, as the EoSFL is the east. With the elevation of the HFL, there isn't an equivalent in the north. Yes, I think a LL/HL equivalent for the West makes sense, but until there is a critical mass of licenced clubs in the West, it's not feasible - I appreciate the chicken and egg conundrum here...

One question I've asked before and not for an answer: if, for example, St Cuthbert or Threave or, dare I say it, Oban wanted to join the Juniors, would they not join the West Region? Now to be region-wide tiers.

[Cyclizine]

Yes - every single club should move across and make it work from the inside.  It really doesn't have to be that complicated. Clubs would still keep their 100+ years of history, they'd still be playing against their local rivals but there would be something to aim for beyond the top league. 

Aye, for the vast majority of clubs nothing would change in a pyramid system. They'd play the same teams in the same local leagues. The only change would be the potential for successful, ambitious clubs to test themselves in higher leagues and for the not-so-successful ones to sink to a sustainable level.

[Burnie_man]

anyway, whats the point, its the same argument almost every month on here, I know exactly what posters will reply to this being all faux offended etc and who'll post in response, you could almost script it. I'd not like to see anything other than junior football thriving regardless of where my club goes or doesnt. But I feel that there are a large number of folks who don't have the foresight to make the necessary changes to make it work currently. Its just my opinion but i've yet to hear anything compelling to the contrary, im tired of this argument all the time so I'll leave this thread for those who wish to continue the perpetual cycle.

 

You're club now have an official in the top echelons of the Junior game, and I believe he has held similar positions in the West.

 

Does he have the foresight to help drive significant change and improvement? Have club members asked him to take a particular positions on issues such as the Pyramid?

 

[Burnie_man]

Let's face it in regards to Clydebank if it wasn't for the juniors yous would be playing at mount blow recreation park at best or even worse a bunch of guys sitting in the Lovat or where ever reminiscing about the old times with nobody to watch.

It's akin to falling ill, calling for the ambulance then when you wake up shouting f**k off i hate you at the nurses who saved you.

You need to get it into your head that people support their club, not a grade of football.

Dundee Utd fans can love their club but hate playing in the Championship, however they can play their way out of it if they are good enough.

That option isn't open to clubs who are members of the SJFA unless they resign and go elsewhere, which isn't even a realistic option for clubs in the West.

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

You need to get it into your head that people support their club, not a grade of football.

Dundee Utd fans can love their club but hate playing in the Championship, however they can play their way out of it if they are good enough.

That option isn't open to clubs who are members of the SJFA unless they resign and go elsewhere, which isn't even a realistic option for clubs in the West.

 

Why do people insist in discussing the pyramid as if we have one. Clubs finding level, platform for ambition, blah blah blah, these are no more than platitudes. We do not have a pyramid, there is no feasible way for a Junior club in the west to "find their level". The SOS league is not a good standard, isolated geographically and would be a killing field for any big Junior club. LL was poorly convcieved and although I admit better than many thought needs changing. As for those who belligerently defend clubs who do not have a support but still have ambitions in the upper echelons here is a quote from one of the finest football brains this country has ever produced

" Football without fans is nothing" 

I am with the big man on that.

Until there is a system which can actually be called a pyramid, that can really be a platform for clubs to find a true level, one where clubs who have genuine potential to bring something to the table, wherever that table may be, we will not move forward.

 

Two top leagues, league one full time everything below league two non league, similar as England and Germany. Not only would clubs find their level, all levels would thrive! 

[Cyclizine]

Why do people insist in discussing the pyramid as if we have one. Clubs finding level, platform for ambition, blah blah blah, these are no more than platitudes. We do not have a pyramid, there is no feasible way for a Junior club in the west to "find their level". The SOS league is not a good standard, isolated geographically and would be a killing field for any big Junior club. LL was poorly convcieved and although I admit better than many thought needs changing. As for those who belligerently defend clubs who do not have a support but still have ambitions in the upper echelons here is a quote from one of the finest football brains this country has ever produced
" Football without fans is nothing" 
I am with the big man on that.
Until there is a system which can actually be called a pyramid, that can really be a platform for clubs to find a true level, one where clubs who have genuine potential to bring something to the table, wherever that table may be, we will not move forward.
 
Two top leagues, league one full time everything below league two non league, similar as England and Germany. Not only would clubs find their level, all levels would thrive! 

Why just two national leagues? How many regional non-league divisions below the second division?

The bottom line is until SFA, SJFA, SAFA, SWFA come together to discuss a unified structure, nothing will happen, other than a slow drip of clubs moving over.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Why do people insist in discussing the pyramid as if we have one. Clubs finding level, platform for ambition, blah blah blah, these are no more than platitudes. We do not have a pyramid, there is no feasible way for a Junior club in the west to "find their level". The SOS league is not a good standard, isolated geographically and would be a killing field for any big Junior club. LL was poorly convcieved and although I admit better than many thought needs changing. As for those who belligerently defend clubs who do not have a support but still have ambitions in the upper echelons here is a quote from one of the finest football brains this country has ever produced

" Football without fans is nothing" 

I am with the big man on that.

Until there is a system which can actually be called a pyramid, that can really be a platform for clubs to find a true level, one where clubs who have genuine potential to bring something to the table, wherever that table may be, we will not move forward.

 

Two top leagues, league one full time everything below league two non league, similar as England and Germany. Not only would clubs find their level, all levels would thrive! 

There's IS a Pyramid, it might be flawed, it might exclude more clubs that it includes, but it IS a Pyramid that any club can join.It shouldn't be like that of course and it's a completely crap Pyramid, but denying it's existence doesn't really help. 

Until Junior clubs accept that it exists, and accept that it's the future whether we like it or not, then nothing will change for the better and Talbot will still not get into the Scottish every season without winning things.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

There's IS a Pyramid, it might be flawed, it might exclude more clubs that it includes, but it IS a Pyramid that any club can join.It shouldn't be like that of course and it's a completely crap Pyramid, but denying it's existence doesn't really help. 

Until Junior clubs accept that it exists, and accept that it's the future whether we like it or not, then nothing will change for the better and Talbot will still not get into the Scottish every season without winning things.

Yes, I agree we have something called a pyramid, but my point is that despite what they call it, or what they think it is, it isn't. So please no more platitudes about realising potential. I'm not getting at you Burnie man, I actually get where your coming from. We need to unify and get the big clubs with big supports in the non league in a better set up than what we have, which is a quick fix which suits some, including the governing body, but is actually a facade! 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Why just two national leagues? How many regional non-league divisions below the second division?

The bottom line is until SFA, SJFA, SAFA, SWFA come together to discuss a unified structure, nothing will happen, other than a slow drip of clubs moving over.

Two senior professional leagues, fairly big ones, because of size of country and population, everything else below regional pyramid involving all non league clubs. Top senior league FT only, league two requirements, Bronze club licence. Non league FA cup as well as entry into Scottish with club licence. I have put this model up for debate before with more detail, good starting point is it not? 

[Cyclizine]

Two senior professional leagues, fairly big ones, because of size of country and population, everything else below regional pyramid involving all non league clubs. Top senior league FT only, league two requirements, Bronze club licence. Non league FA cup as well as entry into Scottish with club licence. I have put this model up for debate before with more detail, good starting point is it not? 

How many regional leagues? Three?