Junior football, what is the future?

[HibeeJibee]

Surely it's going to be academic anyway? After a mild winter games were still getting packed-in well into June. How will they accommodate 8 extra league games except by scrapping LC?

[AlanCamelonfan]

Nobody would "go to the Seniors", everyone would be a football club, not a Junior club, not a Senior club, just a football club without a ridiculous label of Junior or Senior.
As has been said umpteen times, for the likes of Benburb nothing much will change at all, you’ll still play mostly the same teams, you’ll still play in the same cups, the only difference will be if you are ever good enough to move up the divisions to the very pinnacle you’d have a chance of SPFL football.  Chances are of course it will never happen and you’ll carry on as is, just like St.Anthonys, just like my club.
However, we might actually benefit from better organisation and eventually better revenues and better access to ground improvement grants, it might even stir a bit more interest. Let’s face it, 99% of clubs receive zero in league sponsorship money or SJFA money, so you’re not losing anything, in fact there is nothing to lose.

But as has been said already pot will get thinner. There's not going to be more money put in coz 100 junior clubs join. Better organisation. The main problem is lack of lights in juniors.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

11 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

It's my personal view for sure – but it also appears to be one that's shared by an increasing number of fans unfortunately. 

At our game away at Ashfield on Wednesday, there were maybe only 80 there - I also poked my head into Keppoch Park to catch a few minutes of the Shire v Clydebank game and I doubt if there were any more than 120 in there.

Our only sub-100 home attendance the whole of last season was midweek in the Sectional v Ashfield, and in last season’s other home Sectional game v Clydebank the attendance was around 50% lower than it was for the home league game we played against them later in the season.

That's not a personal view, that’s just stats.

Obviously clubs in sections which contain well-supported sides will be reluctant to kill the cash cow and give those paydays up, but I’d be willing to bet there aren’t as many Pollok or Arthurlie fans bothering to turn up for away games against the Ants or Bens as there were even ten years ago, and that’s likely to dwindle more the longer the current stagnant sections continue.

Agreed with what you say but away games 10 years ago. Stats are fact and solutions need to be found. Polloks average attendance was 2400 in 1993 now its, I think, 800.   The Scottish amateur cup had over 1600 teams in it, now theres less than 700.Theres less youth teams in fooball to 30 years ago or even 10 years ago. Amateur football always produce some fantastic players for the junior ranks but the choice is now limited.   It means there is less and less people interested in football or being taken away via other interests and not just playing but in watching football and supporting junior clubs 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnie_man]

35 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I'm not stating I'm against the pyramid system I'm just stating ramifications of the purposed.

Junior football was set up well over a hundred years ago as a level of football that was supposedly lower then senior football and more towards the community.
Times do change and you have to change with it but as like in business you have to look at worst case scenarios and be prepared for them just incase.
We all know theres quite a few junior teams who can go to a higher level and do really well but in the past most have NOT wanted to do so.

If there is a pyramid system there will be great stories of teams going to a higher level but there will also be stories of teams going to the lower level and maybe folding because of such.

I do think that after a few years of the pyramid system, and my mind wont change of this factor that there would eventually a few teams would fold.
The only way out that I can see to help the lowest teams as it has been in the west region juniors that there would be a district section at the very bottom, say a west district, an east district, a north district and a southern district.
 

In regards to the " Let’s face it, 99% of clubs receive zero in league sponsorship money or SJFA money, so you’re not losing anything, in fact there is nothing to lose.".

The bottom, lowest clubs don't reply on sponsorship money from the league, SFA, (if a pyramid) or SJYA, they rely on the community, social clubs, supporters clubs, local sponsorship. If they start to dwindle then that's where the real threat would lie so you have to see how the pyramid system would effect them. I mean in the lowland league, if some of these teams don't do well, relegated and then go down again , lower then the local smaller teams will have to do long treks to these places and that will definitely hurt them so I can ONLY see a District leagues in order for the lowest to survive if we truly want them to survive.  It might mean that some of the lower teams might go to the amateur level but that would create a whole lot of problems for them as in paying support, supporters club money, (well I suspect it would).

 

Also you couldn't have everyone enter the Scottish Cup, there would be too many games at the start, would there be a qualifying round to qualify for the qualifying round to get to the main qualifying round, lollll heaven forbid or could the Scottish Junior cup still be used for certain district leagues, I wonder

 

Why would "Junior" clubs fold if all non-league clubs were in the same league system, more so than now, on what basis do you make that assumption?    We've seen Junior clubs go from Superleague to bottom District league and make their way back up again, that's football, that's how it works.  Remember, the Junior system is a Pyramid in miniature, and clubs do fold occasionally.

League sponsorship money is distributed to all SPFL clubs, they also benefit from SFA money, LL clubs also benefit to a certain degree.  Junior clubs receive next to nothing unless you're winning the big trophies or leagues (that's why nobody relies on it).  My club got £200 for being runners-up in the South Division last season, that is the first league sponsorship money we've probably ever received, it buys a few balls.

In England they have 700-800 clubs in the FA Cup, I'm sure we can handle 250

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

But as has been said already pot will get thinner. There's not going to be more money put in coz 100 junior clubs join. Better organisation. The main problem is lack of lights in juniors.

Lack of lights is due in part to lack of funding.........better organisation, better access to grant aid by being part of a Pyramid.  The Sun sponsors the LL, sponsors like that could be attracted further down with the help of the SPFL/SFA.   The SJFA can't even get a sponsor for the Junior Cup, which is supposed to be the pinnacle of the Junior game.

[AlanCamelonfan]

Lack of lights is due in part to lack of funding.........better organisation, better access to grant aid by being part of a Pyramid.  The Sun sponsors the LL, sponsors like that could be attracted further down with the help of the SPFL/SFA.   The SJFA can't even get a sponsor for the Junior Cup, which is supposed to be the pinnacle of the Junior game.

The sun doesn't sponsor lowland league. They did first season it's ferrari packaging. We all been there with clubs that have had money and not done anything with grounds. The sea struggled to get sponsors for league and cups .

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Agreed with what you say but away games 10 years ago. Stats are fact and solutions need to be found. Polloks average attendance was 2400 in 1993 now its, I think, 800.   The Scottish amateur cup had over 1600 teams in it, now theres less than 700.Theres less youth teams in fooball to 30 years ago or even 10 years ago. Amateur and produce some fantastic players for the junior ranks but the choice is now limited.   It means there is less and less people interested in football or being taken away view other interests and not just playing but in watching football and supporting junior clubs 

So if we keep doing as we've always done, nothing is going to improve is it, it's going to continue to get worse.  If only all football clubs could come under the one umbrella and collectively help each other.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

The sun doesn't sponsor lowland league. They did first season it's ferrari packaging. We all been there with clubs that have had money and not done anything with grounds. The sea struggled to get sponsors for league and cups .

Point is, they don't struggle for league sponsors, and almost all clubs in the LL have floodlights, all have cover, many have seated stands. A lot of that is supported by the Scottish Football Partnership who provide grant aid to clubs going for a Licence.

The SJFA can't even get a paltry £80k for the Junior cup, and Junior clubs find it hard to access grant aid for ground improvements.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

So if we keep doing as we've always done, nothing is going to improve is it, it's going to continue to get worse.  If only all football clubs could come under the one umbrella and collectively help each other.

I am not saying do nothing as I've said before its best to look at all ramifications if a pyramid system is adopted then this would help if we look at all avenues and  eventualities

[Burnie_man]

I am not saying do nothing as I've said before its best to look at all ramifications if a pyramid system is adopted then this would help if we look at all avenues and  eventualities

Problem is nobody is looking, or talking, just trying to pretend it doesn't exist.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

46 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Why would "Junior" clubs fold if all non-league clubs were in the same league system, more so than now, on what basis do you make that assumption?    We've seen Junior clubs go from Superleague to bottom District league and make their way back up again, that's football, that's how it works.  Remember, the Junior system is a Pyramid in miniature, and clubs do fold occasionally.

League sponsorship money is distributed to all SPFL clubs, they also benefit from SFA money, LL clubs also benefit to a certain degree.  Junior clubs receive next to nothing unless you're winning the big trophies or leagues (that's why nobody relies on it).  My club got £200 for being runners-up in the South Division last season, that is the first league sponsorship money we've probably ever received, it buys a few balls.

In England they have 700-800 clubs in the FA Cup, I'm sure we can handle 250

Why would "Junior" clubs fold if all non-league clubs were in the same league system, more so than now, on what basis do you make that assumption?    We've seen Junior clubs go from Superleague to bottom District league and make their way back up again, that's football, that's how it works.  Remember, the Junior system is a Pyramid in miniature, and clubs do fold occasionally.

 

Have you looked at the teams in the current format, there is no way teams at the bottom of the junior district leagues could afford to travel to some of these grounds if the lowland or southern teams were relegated.  Of course some teams were in the premier league and then ended up in the district league but when they are in the lower district section they don't have to travel that far for games.  

For your information and I'm sure you know anyways :
The lowland consists of (BSC Glasgow, Civil Service Strollers, Cumbernauld Colts, Dalbeattie Star, East Kilbride, East Stirlingshire, Edinburgh University, Gala Fairydean Rovers, Gretna 2008, Hawick Royal Albert, Preston Athletic, Selkirk, Spartans, Stirling University, Vale of Leithen, Whitehill Welfare) and the:

Southern league is (Abbey Vale, Bonnyton Thistle, Creetown, Dumfries YMCA, Edusport Academy, Heston Rovers, Lochar Thistle, Lochmaben
Mid-Annandale, Newton Stewart, Nithsdale Wanderers, St Cuthbert Wanderers, Threave Rovers, Upper Annandale, Wigtown & Bladnoch)

There is absolute no way many of the lower junior teams can continue to play against/travel to teams like those if the senior teams at the moment were to be relegated. Obviously some are close but some are certainly not

Yes you are correct the junior system is a pyramid in miniature but the lower district divisions are local Ayrshire teams so its easy to get to these places. If you get relegated, do you think it will be easy to generate sponsorship like you had when you were in the division above, no it would be harder, so less money to use and maybe further to travel in league games.
I am not blinkered to the facts but I like to cover all bases to see what ramifications, implications and growth can be made.
Obviously if go to a pyramid system it won't be just as straight forward as most will think but there will most definitely have to be district leagues or many lower teams will suffer.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Bestsinceslicebread]

http://Junior football, what is the future?

isn't it fun when everyone comes in with information and ideas and then a lot realise its like opening a can of worms but then again, Seagulls and Birds like worms, don't they.    but in order to fix a can or worms you have to open it anyway.

One thing for sure there always needs to be change if theres been a dwindle or  stagnant time and I hope something is worked out that benefits everyone.

 

I need to go, I think I talked some sense there. My head hurts

Edited August 4, 2017 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Jason King]

The solution to that is that you regionalise when you get to a certain level, which is why we have 3 regions of the Juniors just now and why the Bens aren't heading to Montrose Roselea tomorrow or next week.

Appropriate regionalisation would mean that Benburb don't have to travel to Threave or Wigtown as they would be in a Southern regional feeder and the Bens would be in a Central/Glasgow/West feeder.

And your list of LL clubs is wrong, that's last season by the looks of it, personally the Bens should be progressing and aiming to get as far as possible in Scottish Football and if that means leaving behind the old ways then so be it.

[Burnie_man]

19 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Why would "Junior" clubs fold if all non-league clubs were in the same league system, more so than now, on what basis do you make that assumption?    We've seen Junior clubs go from Superleague to bottom District league and make their way back up again, that's football, that's how it works.  Remember, the Junior system is a Pyramid in miniature, and clubs do fold occasionally.

 

Have you looked at the teams in the current format, there is no way teams at the bottom of the junior district leagues could afford to travel to some of these grounds if the lowland or southern teams were relegated.  Of course some teams were in the premier league and then ended up in the district league but when they are in the lower district section they don't have to travel that far for games.  

For your information and I'm sure you know anyways :
The lowland consists of (BSC Glasgow, Civil Service Strollers, Cumbernauld Colts, Dalbeattie Star, East Kilbride, East Stirlingshire, Edinburgh University, Gala Fairydean Rovers, Gretna 2008, Hawick Royal Albert, Preston Athletic, Selkirk, Spartans, Stirling University, Vale of Leithen, Whitehill Welfare) and the:

Southern league is (Abbey Vale, Bonnyton Thistle, Creetown, Dumfries YMCA, Edusport Academy, Heston Rovers, Lochar Thistle, Lochmaben
Mid-Annandale, Newton Stewart, Nithsdale Wanderers, St Cuthbert Wanderers, Threave Rovers, Upper Annandale, Wigtown & Bladnoch)

There is absolute no way many of the lower junior teams can continue to play against/travel to teams like those if the senior teams at the moment were to be relegated. Obviously some are close but some are certainly not

Yes you are correct the junior system is a pyramid in miniature but the lower district divisions are local Ayrshire teams so its easy to get to these places. If you get relegated, do you think it will be easy to generate sponsorship like you had when you were in the division above, no it would be harder, so less money to use and maybe further to travel in league games.
I am not blinkered to the facts but I like to cover all bases to see what ramifications, implications and growth can be made.
Obviously if go to a pyramid system it won't be just as straight forward as most will think but there will most definitely have to be district leagues or many lower teams will suffer.

You do realise that the concept of a Pyramid is that it is broad at the bottom and pointy at the top? the pointy bit currently being the Lowland League, the broad bit being various District/Local Leagues.

Current district league clubs in the Juniors wont travel any more than they would do now (in fact haven’t the West clubs just voted to disband the District Leagues?) South of Scotland clubs would probably stay where they are and feed into the Pyramid at some level.  In fact, a Pyramid would probably mean more regionalisation and less travelling for clubs lower down, that’s the whole point of it.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

16 minutes ago, Jason King said:

The solution to that is that you regionalise when you get to a certain level, which is why we have 3 regions of the Juniors just now and why the Bens aren't heading to Montrose Roselea tomorrow or next week.

Appropriate regionalisation would mean that Benburb don't have to travel to Threave or Wigtown as they would be in a Southern regional feeder and the Bens would be in a Central/Glasgow/West feeder.

And your list of LL clubs is wrong, that's last season by the looks of it, personally the Bens should be progressing and aiming to get as far as possible in Scottish Football and if that means leaving behind the old ways then so be it.

Ok it was taken from last years list but you get the drift.  I'm not looking at this as a Bens follower as I don't go to their games. I'm looking at it for all the teams in the top half of junior football and the lower half.    Yes if reorganisation happens then it should taken in areas, that's what I mean by continuing with district leagues at the lowest level.  Every team should be progressing and aiming to get as far as possible in the Scottish league but there are a  lot who are not willing or wanting to do so and you would need to delve deeper to find the reasons why. If you think this is not true then im sorry that's what I believe of my experiences of being in junior football, supporting it and playing in it.

Feck when I played for a certain junior team that I loved and eventually played for had a committee man, now I never said chairman, who was unemployed but when to the bookies nearly every day to spend £50, you work out the math how he funded his enjoyment.

 

Fans of junior clubs are great they are what keeps them ticking over, well usually, but they always don't know the full facts of how the club is operating or their real vision.  I think a pyramid system will come , I just hope its the right one for everyone.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnie_man]

15 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

http://Junior football, what is the future?

isn't it fun when everyone comes in with information and ideas and then a lot realise its like opening a can of worms but then again, Seagulls and Birds like worms, don't they.    but in order to fix a can or worms you have to open it anyway.

One thing for sure there always needs to be change if theres been a dwindle or  stagnant time and I hope something is worked out that benefits everyone.

 

I need to go, I think I talked some sense there. My head hurts

Clubs need to start talking with all options on the table. The Pyramid wont go away and will only get stronger, that's the bottom line.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You do realise that the concept of a Pyramid is that it is broad at the bottom and pointy at the top? the pointy bit currently being the Lowland League, the broad bit being various District/Local Leagues.

Current district league clubs in the Juniors wont travel any more than they would do now (in fact haven’t the West clubs just voted to disband the District Leagues?) South of Scotland clubs would probably stay where they are and feed into the Pyramid at some level.  In fact, a Pyramid would probably mean more regionalisation and less travelling for clubs lower down, that’s the whole point of it.

Agreed!!    Less travelling for the lower clubs is best.   I'm just saying that if there is just one tier pyramid system I think it would be best to keep district leagues at the lower level.  But on here everyones view of DISTRICT level may be different

Edited August 4, 2017 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Agreed!!    Less travelling for the lower clubs is best.   I'm just saying that if there is just one tier pyramid system I think it would be best to keep district leagues at the lower level

A Pyramid means more regionalisation the further down you go.  The West have gone "all-in" with no District Leagues, which surprised me.

[HTG]

8 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

 

 

 

 

Don't be stupid. East Kilbride are never going to win bet Fred cup. So if Auchinleck done it they'd be going from winning trophies every season to winning nothing. To get more prize money. I think interest would eventually drop after the novelty factor wears off

 

 

 

 

I know I keep saying this but ...

Set aside Auchinleck for a moment and consider Craigmark. Why do they even bother. Why does anyone? Do you think there should be teams 3 leagues down in the west?  Why not just form a league of 3 or 4 and win trophies much more often?  

Your reasoning has no logic. 

[AlanCamelonfan]

I know I keep saying this but ...
Set aside Auchinleck for a moment and consider Craigmark. Why do they even bother. Why does anyone? Do you think there should be teams 3 leagues down in the west?  Why not just form a league of 3 or 4 and win trophies much more often?  
Your reasoning has no logic. 

My point was on teams who currently win stuff going somewhere where they won't. Not as your looking at it that there will always be teams winning nothing.