Junior football, what is the future?

[mcruic]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

Very true, but I think it's taken to extremes in Scotland, with League 2 sides terrified of what's below them after being protected for so long. The Elgin City chairman was quite honest about it in an interview.

Yes well, look at how East Stirlingshire and Berwick Rangers have fared since relegation.  Elgin City weren't really one of the top Highland league clubs when they joined the Scottish League, finishing 7-9-5-4-9 in the 5 seasons before election to the SL.  So it's no surprise they've stayed in the bottom league since.  In saying that, Ross County weren't all that great until a few seasons before they joined the SL.  They even finished 18th out of 18 in 1986/87, just 8 years before they would join the SL.

Also, results like Broxburn 3-0 Cowdenbeath show that the current system doesn't really reflect reality.  Burntisland Shipyard 0-7 Colville Park is another result that stands out - top amateur teams much better than lower level senior teams.  The whole setup in Scotland is a mess that's only just starting to be reformed.  There's no reason why all adult football can't be brought under one system that reflects playing strength instead of having top ex-junior clubs faffing about 2 or 3 tiers below their true level just because of this artificial bottleneck.  Bring the remaining juniors into the fold, and bring the amateurs in as feeders to the WoS, EoS, SoS, NoS - teams can decide whether or not to apply for promotion depending on their means.  That way, everybody has a pathway to the top, or a way to mill about at the same level for years if they so desire.  Essentially, it's what they have already + an extra opportunity.  The fact that clubs are refusing this is laughable.  It's like saying to somebody, oh you have £50!  How about I enter your name in a draw for another £50, no risk?  Nah it's OK, I wouldn't know what to do with £100...

[LongTimeLurker]

19 hours ago, mcruic said:

...Most of the top half teams in the Highland or even Lowland League could beat a League 2 bottom feeder.  Top teams in the East of Scotland League would have a chance too.

Floodlights going in at clubs like Clydebank, Auchinleck Talbot, Cumnock, Darvel and Irvine Meadow is very bad news for League 2 bottom feeders now the WoS is in place. The west is underrepresented in the SPFL lower tiers. That's definitely going to change over the next couple of decades.

[Dev]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Floodlights going in at clubs like Clydebank, Auchinleck Talbot, Cumnock, Darvel and Irvine Meadow is very bad news for League 2 bottom feeders now the WoS is in place. The west is underrepresented in the SPFL lower tiers. That's definitely going to change over the next couple of decades.

You're right about this. Do you think that this will lead to the formation of a split League 2 i.e. to allow the current League 2 clubs the chance to keep their places in the SPFL? Do you think that the full-time clubs might ditch the semi-pro clubs into the mix with the current Tier 5 leagues? 

[LongTimeLurker]

21 minutes ago, Dev said:

You're right about this. Do you think that this will lead to the formation of a split League 2 i.e. to allow the current League 2 clubs the chance to keep their places in the SPFL? Do you think that the full-time clubs might ditch the semi-pro clubs into the mix with the current Tier 5 leagues? 

Sadly I think the SPFL's voting system means we are stuck with what we have now for the foreseeable future. Hope that's not the case though.

[Tutankhamen]

3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Sadly I think the SPFL's voting system means we are stuck with what we have now for the foreseeable future. Hope that's not the case though.

LTL you ain't half backtracking on this gig.

All this was pointed out a couple of years back but you went into overdrive to stifle any criticism.

[LongTimeLurker]

Probably shouldn't but here goes. You may have noticed that my posts often don't go down well with Burnieman and the rest of the hardcore pyramidistas on here. That's because I have consistently pointed out the flaws in what the SFA and LL/EoS have been doing rather than blaming absolutely everything on Tom Johnston and the SJFA. My posture is that having a pyramid is better than not having one, but the one we now have still has huge flaws that need to be highlighted and fixed.

[Andy groundhopper]

Comparing with the English Lge2, are clubs at the tail end of spfl2 frightened of relegation because they may never come back ? Maybe that's why it's difficult to change the current system. 2 up 2 down would be a brave move and give all the ambitious non league clubs a real boost.

[LongTimeLurker]

25 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Comparing with the English Lge2, are clubs at the tail end of spfl2 frightened of relegation because they may never come back ? 

Petrified of that and recently blocked Kelty and Brora getting in under a temporary 14-10-10-10 because of it.

[parsforlife]

They will never admit to that, more publicly the argument has been that if the strength was there then the clubs Non-league would be winning the play-off all the time and also that the pyramid hasn’t properly settled down and they shouldn’t be automatically going into a league that doesn’t necessarily contain teams like auchinlect.  There’s even a sense they are now being generous that they are even offering sides a chance to win promotion when they have been previously only got in via a vote when a vacancy arose. It’s all bluster IMO. 

The SPFL sides(more so league 2) need to get to the point that the SPL did.  It took along time but eventually there was recognition that by not offering better promotion opportunities they were eventually going to find themselves on the other side of the wall struggling to get back in.    You only get there once there is a significant amount of clubs that have experienced both sides of things.
 

Progress moves slowly, especially when high thresholds need to be met for any significant change.

Edited July 4, 2020 by parsforlife

[FairWeatherFan]

34 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Comparing with the English Lge2, are clubs at the tail end of spfl2 frightened of relegation because they may never come back ? Maybe that's why it's difficult to change the current system. 2 up 2 down would be a brave move and give all the ambitious non league clubs a real boost.

Back when the SPL and SFL were discussing merging, you had the SFA negotiating to get a pyramid under what would become the SPFL. The SPFL set up at the time was going to be 12-12-18 instead of the 12-10-10-10 that we kept. Even with a 18 bottom league there were would still have been a relegation playoff between the HL & LL Champions.

A lot of the supposed fear comes down to money. SPFL football comes with prize money and greater exposure. Relegation means changing how the clubs operate financially. The description of the lower level SPFL clubs as bottom feeders is a bit disingenuous though. They're part time football teams, so go through highs and lows depending on manager and player turnover.

Brechin City and Cowdenbeath have been Club 42, both have reached as high as the Championship (2nd Tier) in the last 5 years. Montrose bounced back from being Club 42 and are now in League One (3rd Tier).

You could argue the only bottom feeders have been Elgin City and Annan Athletic. Two clubs never to be promoted from the 4th Tier and were elected into the national leagues. Yet they've both avoided being Club 42 since it was introduced.

[Andy groundhopper]

Maybe finishing club 42 gives people the kick up the backside they need, the part time clubs will always find it hard. Guess that the smaller divisions gives everyone a chance,be interesting to see the likes of Kelty,Brora,Talbot having a go in the spfl - natural progression rather than trying to get voted in.

[mcruic]

The problem is that when the pyramid was started, the juniors weren't involved.  Now that they are involved, they have to start at the bottom, which means that effectively, Tier 6 (WoS) is actually stronger than Tier 5 (Lowland).  Tier 6 (EoS) is probably at least as strong as the Lowland League as well.  But with only 1 team going up each season, it will take 10-15 years for clubs to all find their place.  That's too long.  Part of this has to do with the fact that the pyramid is being forced into the 2-league Tier 5, when it really should be 3 (North/East/West) based on number and quality of clubs in each zone.  It doesn't make sense to corral 20 or 30 excellent non-league teams into the "Lowland" area, and give them the same chance at a play-off as 5 or 6 equivalent teams in the Highland area.  Again, it will take absolutely ages for the "correct" order to transpire. 

 

Scotland is the only country in the world where you can find several teams playing at lower tiers who are much better than teams 1 or even 2 tiers above them.  A disgrace that we can't sort it out decently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by mcruic

[Andy groundhopper]

17 minutes ago, mcruic said:

The problem is that when the pyramid was started, the juniors weren't involved.  Now that they are involved, they have to start at the bottom, which means that effectively, Tier 6 (WoS) is actually stronger than Tier 5 (Lowland).  Tier 6 (EoS) is probably at least as strong as the Lowland League as well.  But with only 1 team going up each season, it will take 10-15 years for clubs to all find their place.  That's too long.  Part of this has to do with the fact that the pyramid is being forced into the 2-league Tier 5, when it really should be 3 (North/East/West) based on number and quality of clubs in each zone.  It doesn't make sense to corral 20 or 30 excellent non-league teams into the "Lowland" area, and give them the same chance at a play-off as 5 or 6 equivalent teams in the Highland area.  Again, it will take absolutely ages for the "correct" order to transpire. 

 

Scotland is the only country in the world where you can find several teams playing at lower tiers who are much better than teams 1 or even 2 tiers above them.  A disgrace that we can't sort it out decently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would a spfl 2 being regionalised be an answer, thus including more HL/LL teams without having to wait, or is the spfl dead against that idea. Wouldn't that benefit Scottish football as a whole ? Almost like the pyramid is upside down

[LongTimeLurker]

3 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Would a spfl 2 being regionalised be an answer, thus including more HL/LL teams without having to wait, or is the spfl dead against that idea...

Most top tier SPFL clubs would be fine with regionalising SPFL1 and SPFL2 and cutting most part time teams loose from the national league structure. The smaller clubs are bitterly opposed and still have the ability to block it.

[parsforlife]

There is absolutely no desire to even think about regionalisation within the clubs that would be affected by it. Any hint of it has been roundly knocked down, it’s not even up to debate.

Ocasionally we see a structure proposed from a premiership club with regionalisation part of it but rarely does it come as a proposition on its own, nearly always chucked in as an afterthought with a bizarre idea that somehow smaller clubs don’t want national football.  As soon as it reaches the discussion stage it’s laughed at. I can not see a scenario where there isn’t 40 + clubs playing nationally.

[mcruic]

11 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Most top tier SPFL clubs would be fine with regionalising SPFL1 and SPFL2 and cutting most part time teams loose from the national league structure. The smaller clubs are bitterly opposed and still have the ability to block it.

Let's compare a 10-10 regional structure (forgetting the LL/HL for a minute).

The current structure is more "feelgood".  Less than half (9) teams in the current structure are not involved in play-offs/promotion/relegation, whereas 14 of the 20 would not be involved in promotion/play-offs/relegation in a regionalised structure.  2 teams are promoted in the current structure, with a further 6 having promotion play-offs - this would likely be 1 and 3 in the regionalised set up.  With the play-offs going down to 4th place, this gives most of the other teams a chance to reach the play-offs - so most teams have something to play for.  If the play-offs only went down to 2nd place, half of the league would have several meaningless games towards the end of the season.

The one small positive is that there would be no automatic relegation - with 2 clubs being involved in Tier 4/5 play-offs.
 

[Burnieman]

Probably shouldn't but here goes. You may have noticed that my posts often don't go down well with Burnieman and the rest of the hardcore pyramidistas on here. That's because I have consistently pointed out the flaws in what the SFA and LL/EoS have been doing rather than blaming absolutely everything on Tom Johnston and the SJFA. My posture is that having a pyramid is better than not having one, but the one we now have still has huge flaws that need to be highlighted and fixed.

Don't drag me into your self inflicted problems on here.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, mcruic said:

The problem is that when the pyramid was started, the juniors weren't involved.  Now that they are involved, they have to start at the bottom, which means that effectively, Tier 6 (WoS) is actually stronger than Tier 5 (Lowland).  Tier 6 (EoS) is probably at least as strong as the Lowland League as well.  But with only 1 team going up each season, it will take 10-15 years for clubs to all find their place.

There is no "place" in a pyramid system.

During the time of the West Region Superleague/Premiership era there were 6 different champions. 5 of them were relegated.

East Region Superleague era is a similar story. 6 different champions, 4 of them were relegated.

[mcruic]

40 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

There is no "place" in a pyramid system.

During the time of the West Region Superleague/Premiership era there were 6 different champions. 5 of them were relegated.

East Region Superleague era is a similar story. 6 different champions, 4 of them were relegated.

I understand your point.  But, in general, there are good clubs who are there or thereabouts most years.  To illustrate this, the Top 7 teams of all time in the West Superleague on PPG (Auchinleck, Hurlford, Pollok, Irvine Meadow, Beith, Kilwinning, Glenafton) were also the Top 7 teams the 2019/20 Premiership.  So it's fair to say their "place" is at the top of the West portion of the pyramid.  Similarly, the East teams with the best PPG of all time are pretty much all top teams in the EoS or East Juniors now.  It's fair to say that Auchinleck Talbot's "place" in the pyramid should be consistently higher than that of Bonnyton Thistle.  I realise teams move, else there would be no point playing any matches - but there is a general trend, and teams generally do have a certain place in the grand scheme of things.

Or perhaps this - there are leagues that are consistently better than others when their member teams meet in competitive matches.

Edited July 4, 2020 by mcruic

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

7 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Probably shouldn't but here goes. You may have noticed that my posts often don't go down well with Burnieman and the rest of the hardcore pyramidistas on here. That's because I have consistently pointed out the flaws in what the SFA and LL/EoS have been doing rather than blaming absolutely everything on Tom Johnston and the SJFA. My posture is that having a pyramid is better than not having one, but the one we now have still has huge flaws that need to be highlighted and fixed.

Don't drag me into your self inflicted problems on here.

What problems? Couldn't care less about coloured dots or having a crank from Kelty stalking me. More to be pitied than scorned.