Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

16 minutes ago, mcruic said:

I understand your point.  But, in general, there are good clubs who are there or thereabouts most years.  To illustrate this, the Top 7 teams of all time in the West Superleague on PPG (Auchinleck, Hurlford, Pollok, Irvine Meadow, Beith, Kilwinning, Glenafton) were also the Top 7 teams the 2019/20 Premiership.  So it's fair to say their "place" is at the top of the West portion of the pyramid.  Similarly, the East teams with the best PPG of all time are pretty much all top teams in the EoS or East Juniors now.  It's fair to say that Auchinleck Talbot's "place" in the pyramid should be consistently higher than that of Bonnyton Thistle.  I realise teams move, else there would be no point playing any matches - but there is a general trend, and teams generally do have a certain place in the grand scheme of things.

Or perhaps this - there are leagues that are consistently better than others when their member teams meet in competitive matches.

The expression "possession is 9/10ths of the law" comes to mind when people try and extrapolate how the leagues are going to look 10-15 years into the future.

There's an obvious flaw in using the all time PPG for example. Talbot 18 seasons, Hurlford 7 seasons, Pollok 17 seasons, Irvine Meadow 12 seasons, Beith 12 seasons, Kilwinning 7 seasons, Glenafton 15 seasons. That's a decent spread of tenures in the top West Region league.

Yet the not so flashy Cumnock Juniors played 16 seasons in the top West Region League and finished 15th in the all time PPG.

It's going to be a lot harder to overhaul the leagues than some people seem to imagine on paper.

 

 

 

[mcruic]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The expression "possession is 9/10ths of the law" comes to mind when people try and extrapolate how the leagues are going to look 10-15 years into the future.

There's an obvious flaw in using the all time PPG for example. Talbot 18 seasons, Hurlford 7 seasons, Pollok 17 seasons, Irvine Meadow 12 seasons, Beith 12 seasons, Kilwinning 7 seasons, Glenafton 15 seasons. That's a decent spread of tenures in the top West Region league.

Yet the not so flashy Cumnock Juniors played 16 seasons in the top West Region League and finished 15th in the all time PPG.

It's going to be a lot harder to overhaul the leagues than some people seem to imagine on paper.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone predicted both Ross County and Inverness CT (or Livingston or Gretna) would reach the Premier.  But at least they got the chance.  Nothing to stop one of the top junior teams reaching the Premier in 10 years - except the current structure of Scottish football. 

It's easy to do on paper - most people could come up with several systems better than the current system - things have to start on paper.  Unfortunately, most of these people don't have any power to make any changes.

Again - it's the only country in Europe that has such a disjointed system of leagues.  There's nothing special or different about Scotland except the inability of so-called football people to get together and actually come up with a proper system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, mcruic said:

The problem is that when the pyramid was started, the juniors weren't involved.  Now that they are involved, they have to start at the bottom, which means that effectively, Tier 6 (WoS) is actually stronger than Tier 5 (Lowland).  Tier 6 (EoS) is probably at least as strong as the Lowland League as well.  But with only 1 team going up each season, it will take 10-15 years for clubs to all find their place.  That's too long.  Part of this has to do with the fact that the pyramid is being forced into the 2-league Tier 5, when it really should be 3 (North/East/West) based on number and quality of clubs in each zone.  It doesn't make sense to corral 20 or 30 excellent non-league teams into the "Lowland" area, and give them the same chance at a play-off as 5 or 6 equivalent teams in the Highland area.  Again, it will take absolutely ages for the "correct" order to transpire. 

 

Scotland is the only country in the world where you can find several teams playing at lower tiers who are much better than teams 1 or even 2 tiers above them.  A disgrace that we can't sort it out decently.

 

I predict that there will be changes in the SPFL structure during the next 3 years, especially if covid19 is not eradicate any time soon.

However, non league clubs/leagues/associations can only blame themselves for a lack of progress since the pyramid was formed in 2013/14. Far too much time has been spent in trying to retain the status quo, and the ongoing/pointless wrangling between junior and senior supporters, instead of getting together for the good of the game.  I accept that the SFA didn't cover itself in glory, by hastily forming the Lowland League. But 7 years on, we have at last, reached the point where the West Juniors will be joining the pyramid. To date, self preservation has ruled, instead of concentrating on having an integrated football structure. So much time has been lost.

And even now, we are led to understand that the North Region Juniors are still not acting decisively, when there is a pyramid offer on the table. By comparison, the North Caledonian League clubs are waiting in the wings, for the green light to enter a highland pyramid, in time for next season (as and when the season goes ahead).. 

Furthermore,West Lothian junior clubs seem to be going nowhere, as do their fellow East Region Junior clubs in Dundee and Angus. I have no idea, if anything is happening, at all.

Together, a fully integrated pyramid structure, would put its clubs in a much stronger position to influence the situation, and to jointly plan for a better future. Whereas ongoing arguments and separation, represents an ongoing position of weakness, which is foolish in the extreme. 

Yes, there has now been progress with the formation of the new West of Scotland 'senior' League,Just take a look at the ground improvements being undertaken currently by clubs in this new league, and it is obvious that (however slowly), we are moving forward.   Once the senior pyramid is complete, planning for the medium and long term future of Scottish non-league football, will inevitably become much easier, credible, and unified, IMO.

[Black Pennel]

TLDR.

I don't have twenty years left to wait to see how this pans out.

Could you chaps type quicker, be less verbose, and get to the fucking point please ?

[Stag Nation]

6 hours ago, mcruic said:

I don't think anyone predicted both Ross County and Inverness CT (or Livingston or Gretna) would reach the Premier.  But at least they got the chance.  Nothing to stop one of the top junior teams reaching the Premier in 10 years - except the current structure of Scottish football.

There's been nothing to stop the top junior teams applying for membership of the Scottish League over the last 100 years, when vacancies occurred.

[Andy groundhopper]

11 hours ago, parsforlife said:

There is absolutely no desire to even think about regionalisation within the clubs that would be affected by it. Any hint of it has been roundly knocked down, it’s not even up to debate.

Ocasionally we see a structure proposed from a premiership club with regionalisation part of it but rarely does it come as a proposition on its own, nearly always chucked in as an afterthought with a bizarre idea that somehow smaller clubs don’t want national football.  As soon as it reaches the discussion stage it’s laughed at. I can not see a scenario where there isn’t 40 + clubs playing nationally.

Can see why lower clubs are against changes, my point was to try and almost fast track the bigger non league clubs into the spfl to make a bigger spfl2. You could get to a stage where the HL/LL winners run away with their league - but just can't get past club42, maybe the champions go up automatically in future. Could spfl2 be increased by 2 teams ?

[parsforlife]

I think we will see automatic relegation eventually, possibly even with 9th becoming a play-off spot. But your probably a decade away from that tbh. 

There was a vote to increase the spfl by 2 places under the 14-10-10-10 option(deemed the most likely to pass) that only 16 clubs voted for, and 6 of those were directly benefiting!  Wether a vote that didn’t increase the premiership size and instead add the places in another division would pass I don’t know but I’d be quite surprised if it did.

There will be no fast-tracking.  Clubs are just going to have to work their way up, and given many have held back on entering the pyramid I don’t have much sympathy for them. 

[Marten]

13 hours ago, mcruic said:

The problem is that when the pyramid was started, the juniors weren't involved.  Now that they are involved, they have to start at the bottom, which means that effectively, Tier 6 (WoS) is actually stronger than Tier 5 (Lowland).  Tier 6 (EoS) is probably at least as strong as the Lowland League as well.  But with only 1 team going up each season, it will take 10-15 years for clubs to all find their place.  That's too long.  Part of this has to do with the fact that the pyramid is being forced into the 2-league Tier 5, when it really should be 3 (North/East/West) based on number and quality of clubs in each zone.  It doesn't make sense to corral 20 or 30 excellent non-league teams into the "Lowland" area, and give them the same chance at a play-off as 5 or 6 equivalent teams in the Highland area.  Again, it will take absolutely ages for the "correct" order to transpire. 

 

Scotland is the only country in the world where you can find several teams playing at lower tiers who are much better than teams 1 or even 2 tiers above them.  A disgrace that we can't sort it out decently.

You make some fair points, but the bit in bold simply isn't true. Scotland is definitely not the only country. That doesn't mean the issues you describe shouldn't be fixed, but claiming that only Scotland has that issue and only Scotland has such a disjointed league system whilst that can be easily refuted won't help the argument.

[LongTimeLurker]

You happen to come from one of the very few UEFA member countries where that would also be fair comment. Most UEFA members have had a pyramid for decades and don't have these issues.

[mcruic]

7 hours ago, Black Pennel said:

TLDR.

I don't have twenty years left to wait to see how this pans out.

Could you chaps type quicker, be less verbose, and get to the fucking point please ?

The point:

Amateurs: Organise yersels a wee bit better.
Juniors: Git yirsels jined up.
Awbdie else: Work thegither fir common guid.

It's a bit more nuanced than that, but massive oversimplification seems to be all the rage these days, so there ya go.

[mcruic]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

You make some fair points, but the bit in bold simply isn't true. Scotland is definitely not the only country. That doesn't mean the issues you describe shouldn't be fixed, but claiming that only Scotland has that issue and only Scotland has such a disjointed league system whilst that can be easily refuted won't help the argument.

Perhaps in Western Europe then.  In other countries (such as Armenia, Azerbaijan), there is a simple division between professional and amateur (amateur clubs can get licensed if they want to join the pro leagues).   There aren't four separate grades, with no clear connection between them.

The point is, most countries around us have managed (including all in the British Isles).

[mcruic]

4 hours ago, Stag Nation said:

There's been nothing to stop the top junior teams applying for membership of the Scottish League over the last 100 years, when vacancies occurred.

There has - themselves and loyalty to "the grade".  Now that that's finally (gradually) being removed, there should be nothing to stop their progression.  There's an attitude among a lot of people that "juniors should wait their turn" because they "missed the boat".  That kind of attitude won't help create unity.  The East Juniors that were against it at the beginning eventually joined the pyramid and I think it's fair to say most of them realise they had been mistaken to oppose it before.  There's no sense punishing or denigrating them for past errors of judgment.   Also, the pyramid is a bit disjointed at the moment (and there was no clarity as to how it would evolve) - so you can't really blame teams for having some trepidation.

Edited July 5, 2020 by mcruic

[LongTimeLurker]

4 minutes ago, mcruic said:

The point:

Amateurs: Organise yersels a wee bit better.
Juniors: Git yirsels jined up.
Awbdie else: Work thegither fir common guid.

It's a bit more nuanced than that, but massive oversimplification seems to be all the rage these days, so there ya go.

Step number one of what is needed is a second automatic relegation spot for the LL so it takes 5 rather than 10 years to have something close to a realistic southern tier 5 feeder. I'm not holding my breath on that happening. Burnieman was claiming on here that it would soon happen after the mass defection to the EoS two years ago, but it was soon announced instead that LL members had no appetite for that. Time for said LL members to get the Tom Johnston treatment from the hardcore pyramidistas, if they are really pro-pyramid rather than driven by a weird anti-SJFA obsession.

[LongTimeLurker]

11 minutes ago, mcruic said:

...The point is, most countries around us have managed (including all in the British Isles).

The RoI's attempt to start a pyramid soon collapsed to something even worse than the Dutch scenario. We are not unique, but one of very few exceptions to the norm in UEFA terms.

Edited July 5, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[mcruic]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The RoI's attempt to start a pyramid soon collapsed to something even worse than the Dutch scenario.

Indeed - there are always great counterexamples.  But this gives some people in Scotland the comforting thought "Oh well, Ireland couldn't do it, so we're not the only ones".

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, mcruic said:

There's an attitude among a lot of people that "juniors should wait their turn" because they "missed the boat". 

The EoS opened up to mass entry at Tier 6. The WoSFL was started at Tier 6. The North Juniors have the opportunity to enter at Tier 6.

That's the exact starting point they would have been working from in 2013. Whoever these "people" are, they obviously aren't running the leagues.

Promotion from Tier 6 to Tier 5 is tied to licencing. Always has been. That's why LTHV, Leith Athletic, St Cuthbert Wanderers, and Wigtown & Bladnoch were all denied promotion over the years. Extra promotion opportunities will come along once there's Tier 6 WoSFL clubs licenced. Right now there's none.

 

 

[LongTimeLurker]

34 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Indeed - there are always great counterexamples.  But this gives some people in Scotland the comforting thought "Oh well, Ireland couldn't do it, so we're not the only ones".

Doubt most people are even aware. The main problem football has in the RoI is that GAA is still favoured by the powers that be. Think the Dutch parallel is more interesting. Most of their largest part-time clubs don't want to be promoted to the fully professional second tier for big fish small pond Talbot type reasons and managed to get the moves to have progression from the third to second tier there to form a complete pyramid suspended. At least we finally appear to have moved beyond that mentality.

Edited July 5, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[mcruic]

8 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The EoS opened up to mass entry at Tier 6. The WoSFL was started at Tier 6. The North Juniors have the opportunity to enter at Tier 6.

That's the exact starting point they would have been working from in 2013. Whoever these "people" are, they obviously aren't running the leagues.

Promotion from Tier 6 to Tier 5 is tied to licencing. Always has been. That's why LTHV, Leith Athletic, St Cuthbert Wanderers, and Wigtown & Bladnoch were all denied promotion over the years. Extra promotion opportunities will come along once there's Tier 6 WoSFL clubs licenced. Right now there's none.

 

 

Agreed - lazy on my part - these "people" are usually to be found on this forum.

 

[Burnieman]

Step number one of what is needed is a second automatic relegation spot for the LL so it takes 5 rather than 10 years to have something close to a realistic southern tier 5 feeder. I'm not holding my breath on that happening. Burnieman was claiming on here that it would soon happen after the mass defection to the EoS two years ago, but it was soon announced instead that LL members had no appetite for that. Time for said LL members to get the Tom Johnston treatment from the hardcore pyramidistas, if they are really pro-pyramid rather than driven by a weird anti-SJFA obsession.

[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Agreed - lazy on my part - these "people" are usually to be found on this forum.

As we've been occasionally lucky to find posters on this forum don't run football.

Don't think anyone imagined the 2018-19 EoSFL Conference season. Most people were stuck on "What will they do if there's more than 18 teams?!?!" conundrum.

No one really saw the pyramid leagues going along with the "Yeah, sure you can still play in the Junior Cup, As long as the senior calendar takes priority" compromise. That helped get the entire West Region into the WoSFL.

The vast majority of semi-profesional clubs are now in the pyramid. Those that are in it can focus on getting licenced to allow for more fluid movements between the leagues. Which allows for the overall structure to be tweaked along the way.