Junior football, what is the future?

[A.M]

30 minutes ago, A.M said:

That wouldnt be all clubs in the pyramid then ?

Burnie_man ?

[Born To Run]

6 minutes ago, A.M said:

Burnie_man ?

I don’t understand what you are querying here. If the West Superleague champion can be promoted to the LL, all the West leagues would by their nature be part of the pyramid. Could technically go all the way to the top, which meets the definition?

[Robert James]

33 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

Ignoring potential grudges between Seniors and Juniors I’ll guarantee right now the West Juniors will not join at tier5 as it’s the SPFL who flat out refused to have a 3 way split and unless you can convince them (bear in mind they want to play nationally) of its benefits then it won’t change. Best it’ll be is Tier 6 for West and North and if 13-15 juniors have applied for EoS then Tier 7 for the East.

 

It won't automatically be tier 7 for the East.  A level playing field for new entrants (ie tier 6 or/and 7) and existing clubs,  will be discussed at the EoSL EGM . There are a number of alternatives.

[Burnie_man]

12 minutes ago, A.M said:

Burnie_man ?

If the existing West Region was considered by the SFA as the new WoSFL then they would be part of the Pyramid.  They would not be part of the SJFA, unless the SJFA can cut a deal to remain intact.

EDIT: I'm not sure the SFA would be keen for the SJFA to organise a new WoSFL.  They can just deal with the WoSFL directly, or set it up themselves.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Burnie_man

[San Starko Rover]

It won't automatically be tier 7 for the East.  A level playing field for new entrants (ie tier 6 or/and 7) and existing clubs,  will be discussed at the EoSL EGM . There are a number of alternatives.

I don’t mean from next season I mean once the SJFA come to the table at least a season away and the EoS has already done what you mention.

[A.M]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

If the existing West Region was considered by the SFA as the new WoSFL then they would be part of the Pyramid.  They would not be part of the SJFA, unless the SJFA can cut a deal to remain intact.

If that was the deal then fine , I am not 100% against change, I just think it should be done through the proper channels and not the way the East is being fragmented by individual clubs trying to gain an advantage by jumping ship.

And before you all jump in telling me how the SJFA  closed their eyes etc , they have opened them now as we can see by arranged meetings.

As I said in my first post its getting to the stage where anybody with any reservations are afraid to post for fear of the pro pyramid onslaught.

You guys have your opinions , it doesnt mean we all have to agree with you.

[Burnie_man]

If that was the deal then fine , I am not 100% against change, I just think it should be done through the proper channels and not the way the East is being fragmented by individual clubs trying to gain an advantage by jumping ship.

And before you all jump in telling me how the SJFA  closed their eyes etc , they have opened them now as we can see by arranged meetings.

As I said in my first post its getting to the stage where anybody with any reservations are afraid to post for fear of the pro pyramid onslaught.

You guys have your opinions , it doesnt mean we all have to agree with you.

 

It's easier to find a solution in the West as a WoSFL doesn't exist, whereas in the East the EoSFL has been there for 100 years and are part of the Pyramid.

 

Therefore the option is there for clubs to move, and has been for a while. It's not fragmented, it's Junior clubs choosing to move into the Pyramid given that is the only option. Both leagues have co-existed since 1922 and clubs have moved back and forward in the past.

 

Ideally an organised merger in the East would have taken place but it hasn't and there's probably even less chance of that happening now. I've always been an advocate that the leagues should have been talking to each other about merger but there's always the spectre of the SJFA looking over the shoulder of the ERJFA, and the EoS were happy with their lot.

 

So we are where we are, and as I said before, I cannot see it being accepted that two leagues will co-exist in the Pyramid at the same level covering the same area, and that is a major issue for the SJFA and their plans.

 

[San Starko Rover]

If that was the deal then fine , I am not 100% against change, I just think it should be done through the proper channels and not the way the East is being fragmented by individual clubs trying to gain an advantage by jumping ship.

And before you all jump in telling me how the SJFA  closed their eyes etc , they have opened them now as we can see by arranged meetings.

As I said in my first post its getting to the stage where anybody with any reservations are afraid to post for fear of the pro pyramid onslaught.

You guys have your opinions , it doesnt mean we all have to agree with you.

 

Fair enough as you say everyone has their opinions but so do the clubs and yes the SJFA is having a meeting but that’s a long way off full integration or any kind of deal, why should clubs in the East who want to join the Pyramid now wait at least one more season for the SJFA to possibly maybe negotiate a deal that might / might not work? When they can just do what Kelty did.

 

You’re asking clubs to put faith in an organization that is historically against what they now say they want, yes the SJFA might get them a great deal but how long will it take? how many seasons will have passed by? How much potential cup revenue could be lost? How much stronger will Lowland league clubs be? How far behind Kelty could they find themselves?

 

You’re happy to play the waiting game as it suits your club and there is no WoS league to consider so West Juniors will have more leverage but others would rather move now before the EoS fills up with more teams.

[Enigma]

 

So we are where we are, and as I said before, I cannot see it being accepted that two leagues will co-exist in the Pyramid at the same level covering the same area, and that is a major issue for the SJFA and their plans.

 

I think we’re at a situation where the SJFA will want too much and the SFA won’t be prepared to give up enough. Result will be a WOSFL and a number of clubs joining for 19/20. The SFA will be happy as these clubs will likely be looking at licensing and be aiming for promotion into the LL. I guess the big challenge will be if the SFA can get the WOSFL off the ground, if we assume 2 join from the SOSFL and Glasgow Uni then the WOSFL will probably need to find at league 7 willing applicants from the junior ranks. If the league can be set up I’d say there’s no looking back and more will likely follow in joining from the juniors and perhaps from the amateur grades too. The good thing for others is those who want to stay Junior are free to do so.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

The clubs answered the question "Do you want to join the CURRENT pyramid?"

To answer Yes would mean you are happy joining the SOS or EOS leagues as that is the current pyramid, as many in the West leagues have said that is not an option they would consider.

Had the questionnaire been worded differently and gave a choice of the juniors moving en masse then I think the 55% figure would have been much higher.

In other words poor questionnaire.

This is a good point, the current pyramid does not suit most west teams. Also, where did all the Junior club licences appear from? It asked do you have a club licence? My understanding is that all but three Junior clubs don't. Talbot and Kelty were applying at the same time both were told they had to be in the pyramid what happened next is partly why we are here. 

[Jason King]

8 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

You’re happy to play the waiting game as it suits your club and there is no WoS league to consider so West Juniors will have more leverage but others would rather move now before the EoS fills up with more teams.

What leverage will the West clubs have? We've sat on our hands for a decade and let others lead when we should have been at the front of the queue. TJ admitted in his missive last week that he'd been told that Junior clubs wont be accessing the pyramid at the same level as the HL/LL, I cant see anything beyond West Tier 1 slotting in at Level 6 at the end of next season IF the clubs can agree how best to proceed.

[Jason King]

1 minute ago, Isabel Goudie said:

This is a good point, the current pyramid does not suit most west teams. Also, where did all the Junior club licences appear from? It asked do you have a club licence? My understanding is that all but three Junior clubs don't. Talbot and Kelty were applying at the same time both were told they had to be in the pyramid what happened next is partly why we are here. 

I thought it asked if you met the criteria for an entry level licence, that licence not being strenuous to achieve - no offence intended but if Camelon can indicate they meet the criteria for an entry level licence then it cant exactly be that tricky to facilitate its achievement.

[Robert James]

38 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

I don’t mean from next season I mean once the SJFA come to the table at least a season away and the EoS has already done what you mention.

 

Thanks for the clarification that you were talking about 2019/20 (which I agree with), and not about 2018/19, where Junior clubs need to be considered fairly in the new EoS structure

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Jason King said:

I thought it asked if you met the criteria for an entry level licence, that licence not being strenuous to achieve - no offence intended but if Camelon can indicate they meet the criteria for an entry level licence then it cant exactly be that tricky to facilitate its achievement.

You're right, so it was left to the clubs to say whether they think they meet it, interesting that my own club who were in the process of applying answered no, despite being ready to apply. Part of the process involves inspection and consultation I would have thought without that most of those clubs who said they met the criteria don't actually know.  The point was made that the document is ambiguous, but it still triggered a reaction which will be a motion I assume. 

[San Starko Rover]

What leverage will the West clubs have? We've sat on our hands for a decade and let others lead when we should have been at the front of the queue. TJ admitted in his missive last week that he'd been told that Junior clubs wont be accessing the pyramid at the same level as the HL/LL, I cant see anything beyond West Tier 1 slotting in at Level 6 at the end of next season IF the clubs can agree how best to proceed.

The leverage I refer to is the lack of a WoS league, same for NoS. While the SoS league technically covers the West area as has been pointed out by many it’s in reality a Dumfries and Galloway league so I would think that the top West Juniors could negotiate to be the WoS league if they perhaps accepted a couple of the bigger SoS teams. The East however can’t really do this as there is the EoS league which covers the whole East lowland league region and I can’t see the SFA letting the East Juniors jump that league or indeed the EoS not fighting it as it already fits their geographical area.

[Teofilio]

I'm sorry if this has been covered already but I've been dipping in and out this thread.

What is the minimum requirement to obtain a licence?

[Robert James]

32 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

It's easier to find a solution in the West as a WoSFL doesn't exist, whereas in the East the EoSFL has been there for 100 years and are part of the Pyramid.

 

Therefore the option is there for clubs to move, and has been for a while. It's not fragmented, it's Junior clubs choosing to move into the Pyramid given that is the only option. Both leagues have co-existed since 1922 and clubs have moved back and forward in the past.

 

Ideally an organised merger in the East would have taken place but it hasn't and there's probably even less chance of that happening now. I've always been an advocate that the leagues should have been talking to each other about merger but there's always the spectre of the SJFA looking over the shoulder of the ERJFA, and the EoS were happy with their lot.

 

So we are where we are, and as I said before, I cannot see it being accepted that two leagues will co-exist in the Pyramid at the same level covering the same area, and that is a major issue for the SJFA and their plans.

 

Did I misunderstand TJ's statement about the pyramid, because I thought he had accepted that the proposed West (en bloc ?) pyramid entry would need to be at Tier 6, not tier 5, because all the HFL and SLL clubs are already  licensed ?

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Did I misunderstand TJ's statement about the pyramid, because I thought he had accepted that the proposed West (en bloc ?) pyramid entry would need to be at Tier 6, not tier 5, because all the HFL and SLL clubs are already  licensed ?

I've not seen his statement but tell_me_more seems to suggest a LL West is a possible solution, which of course it's not, short term at least.

[Robert James]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I've not seen his statement but tell_me_more seems to suggest a LL West is a possible solution, which of course it's not, short term at least.

No he was 'advocating' Tier 6 level for the new WoSL. The Lowland is at tier 5.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Robert James said:

No he was 'advocating' Tier 6 level for the new WoSL. The Lowland is at tier 5.

A rare show of sense, but then some clubs will think the opposite. 

His problem will be in the East, as well as trying to remain intact as a national body, and getting a consensus from remaining member clubs.