Junior football, what is the future?

[TheLad]

I don't think we'll be competing for players anytime soon! 
I'm just as excited at the prospect of our (good) U19 side now being able to enter the LL/EoS U20 Development League next season and our second (first year) U19 team filling the gap a year later, and strengthening the player pathway to the Junior Senior side.  Assuming our application is successful of course.

This kind of forward thinking by your club is why Blackburn is coming on leaps and bounds in recent years. Too many clubs only thinking about what it looks like this year or next, while failing to see the bigger picture.

[TheLad]

Are you seriously saying eos league is a higher standard than junior super league...

It doesn't matter what the standard is now. It's what it looks in a few years. Anyone solely thinking about the here and now when looking at these proposals is a moron.

[Bathgate_Exile]

6 hours ago, DavidMcG said:

Sauchie, St Andrews and Bathgate all saying adios to the juniors 

Would be interested to hear your source as I've heard little/no chat about an application at games.

[SimonLichtie]

20 hours ago, SimonLichtie said:

The sheer delusion is jaw dropping.

A lot of the arguments here are so akin to the 'Colt teams in League 2' arguments. Yet again you have some people on one side who will argue their case regardless of having no factual information to back themselves up, and a whole load of factual information going against them. Some people just don't deal in logic/ reason/ fact and form their opinion and stubbornly refuse to change it regardless of any change/ time that passes.

To reinforce the above point, incredibly someone has come out with the following on Twitter....

'I would think attendances in the Superleague West top division over a season far exceeds SPFL league 2.'

This sort of thing is exactly what I mean. It's obviously complete and utter nonsense, but regardless of the facts the person in question will never change their opinion. Some people just set an opinion and will consider themselves right and others wrong regardless of anything else, with a lot of that on display in this thread.

I assume it is a small minority of junior fans who have these delusional opinions, right?  

 

[cmontheloknow]

32 minutes ago, SimonLichtie said:

To reinforce the above point, incredibly someone has come out with the following on Twitter....

'I would think attendances in the Superleague West top division over a season far exceeds SPFL league 2.'

This sort of thing is exactly what I mean. It's obviously complete and utter nonsense, but regardless of the facts the person in question will never change their opinion. Some people just set an opinion and will consider themselves right and others wrong regardless of anything else, with a lot of that on display in this thread.

I assume it is a small minority of junior fans who have these delusional opinions, right?  

 

Not knowing who posted that comment, I'd assume it's based on the idea that some SPFL clubs don't declare the actual attendance and include absent season ticket holders etc... Celtic in the top league for example famously always declare low 50000s when there are many thousands less there, and therefore in SPFL2 when they say there's 400 there, it's actually 150! Not my opinion but I have heard it.

Pollok do have a league average in excess of all SPFL2 sides bar Stirling so a Lok fan might have a different view of the norm. But so few publicly declare their gates it's an inexact science that leaves headcounting the only way to even guess. That said, I have been to few Lok away days over the years where the crowd consistently broke 400 for a mundane league game - games v Arthurlie and Auchinleck as definite exceptions. The last season I went regularly before moving away, nine years ago, I did headcounts and noted the following over 400 (some official): Auchinleck 800 (L), Cumnock 450 (L), Rob Roy 400 (L), Irvine Meadow 500 (L), Clydebank 600 (C), Irvine Meadow 1523 (C), Thorniewood 710 (C), Kilsyth 550 (C), Arthurlie 600 (L), Kilbirnie 550 (C), Arthurlie 600 (C), Petershill 450 (L), Arthurlie 450 (C). Bear in mind though that POllok do have a decent three figure away following. 

Pollok figures this season: 9 league games, total crowd 5755, average 639 (3 additional home cup ties drop average to 597). Highest home gate: 1125, lowest 405 (league) / 245 (cup).

Edited April 3, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[1320Lichtie]

Is it?

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. Who really cares what is bigger? I don't think 90% of football fans in this country could tell you who won either last year.

They could though, just like I could tell you who won the English league 2 last season. National coverage of our league win, all over the footballing radio, tv and media, even Jeff Stelling read it oooot! [emoji14]

[1320Lichtie]

Fair play to all the teams that have applied by the way! Can’t believe there’s so many.

Is there a full list anywhere?

[cmontheloknow]

6 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Fair play to all the teams that have applied by the way! Can’t believe there’s so many.

Is there a full list anywhere?

No because they have not been announced. We only know for sure the clubs that have come forward - Camelon, Dalkeith and Blackburn  are three I remember. Not sure on Bonnyrigg's timescale. 

[1320Lichtie]

No because they have not been announced. We only know for sure the clubs that have come forward - Camelon, Dalkeith and Blackburn  are three I remember. Not sure on Bonnyrigg's timescale. 

Get Pollok involved too. I find it all pretty exciting, I think the seniors need freshened up, same old teams, plus the senior Scottish Cup early rounds could be the business.

[cmontheloknow]

8 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

Get Pollok involved too. I find it all pretty exciting, I think the seniors need freshened up, same old teams, plus the senior Scottish Cup early rounds could be the business.

I'm sure if the pathway and timings are correct, they will. It will not be the EoS next season though!

[A.M]

Its getting to the stage on here that anybody who shows any reservation are being classed as thick or morons, its the same people beating the drum for the pyramid all the time , led by Kelty who have already left,

We enjoyed the juniors for many years, 50 in my case, and still do , but with clubs jumping ship it looks like the beginning of the end with all this promise of milk and honey in the Seniors, and I say that because the Kelty man was lauded for the examples he put up about benefits for seniors over juniors ....every benefit was money orientated, never once was quality of football mentioned.

One point nobody seems to mention is the fact that in the questionaire 74 clubs opted to join at tier 5 as opposed to tier 6, now that will not happen for any clubs never mind 74.

So what I'm saying is that once the Sjfa and Sfa come up with a formal proposal and a real vote is required perhaps many of the 99 who ticked the pyramid box may have a rethink ?

What I find sad is that some people like Gogsy seem to revel in the fact the juniors could be about to break up .

BTW I agree with Boness stance in waiting for meetings to take place before making their decision, instead of joining the stampede.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

2 hours ago, findla80 said:

Who is to say Bo’ness or Linlithgow haven’t applied?? No one knows for sure!

Tynieness is on the Bo'ness committee and has stated they didn't:

22 hours ago, Tynieness said:

Correct much to my frustration and it is something I am furious about as its a huge opportunity lost.  The amount of clubs going will pretty much kill the East Juniors and those big clubs left behind i.e.  BU and LRFC will take years to catch up.

Last year when trying to sign players was the first season we were losing out to LL clubs for players and this pattern will continue.

Junior football is toast.

22 hours ago, Tynieness said:

I'm bitterly disappointed and there is plenty I could say but I will hold my council.

All I will say is I have a folder that took me weeks to compile with the completed paperwork required for a license application.

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by LongTimeLurker

[the tin man]

Duniplace mussy dalkeith Edinburgh Dunbar camelon blackburn easthouses hill of beath bonnyrigg n tranent make up the 11 of the 12 the teams applied

 

 

[Jason King]

1 minute ago, the tin man said:

Duniplace mussy blackburn dalkeith Edinburgh Dunbar camelon blackburn easthouses hill of beath bonnyrigg n tranent make up the teams applied

I've seen the Bens at Dunbar, tidy wee ground.

Dunipace are I believe going plastic over the summer but I do wonder why they would look to move East - I assume that the distances going East will be similar to the trips to Ayrshire they would be making in the new West setup.

[kefc]

15 minutes ago, A.M said:

Its getting to the stage on here that anybody who shows any reservation are being classed as thick or morons, its the same people beating the drum for the pyramid all the time , led by Kelty who have already left,

We enjoyed the juniors for many years, 50 in my case, and still do , but with clubs jumping ship it looks like the beginning of the end with all this promise of milk and honey in the Seniors, and I say that because the Kelty man was lauded for the examples he put up about benefits for seniors over juniors ....every benefit was money orientated, never once was quality of football mentioned.

One point nobody seems to mention is the fact that in the questionaire 74 clubs opted to join at tier 5 as opposed to tier 6, now that will not happen for any clubs never mind 74.

So what I'm saying is that once the Sjfa and Sfa come up with a formal proposal and a real vote is required perhaps many of the 99 who ticked the pyramid box may have a rethink ?

What I find sad is that some people like Gogsy seem to revel in the fact the juniors could be about to break up .

BTW I agree with Boness stance in waiting for meetings to take place before making their decision, instead of joining the stampede.

 

What does the East of Scotland Football League have to offer?

• Membership of EOSFL which confirms acceptance of and commitment to the pyramid system thereby satisfying a mandatory requirement of being granted a Club Licence.

• Automatic entry to the Scottish Cup for Champion Club irrespective of licencing status which will generate a minimum income in excess of £3,000

• 3 ways of Scottish Cup Entry, EOS & SOS League Champions, Alex Jack Cup Winner, Any Licenced Club

• £3,000 Funding towards ground improvements available to all un-licenced  clubs looking to gain their SFA Licence

• Up to £10,000 funding as an EOS club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements.

• Our ambition is to have all Members licenced as soon as possible and thereby automatically in the Scottish Cup every year.

• Very likely more promotion places will be available to enter the Lowland League from Tier 6

• Depending on interest from that area a possible West Of Scotland division would be looked at for tier 6

• SFA Sports First Aid courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge). SFA Licence compliant

• All clubs supplied with a defibrillator and associated training. SFA Licence compliant

• Bespoke personalised first aid bag.

• Personal Accident and Liability insurance incl. player to player liability paid for by the League. SFA  Licence compliant

• Match balls and training balls supplied each season.

• Bespoke goalkeeping courses.

• Coaching courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge) up to C Licence level.

• Prize money for those Clubs finishing in the top four in the league.

• A sound organisational structure with fixtures issued on a seasonal basis.

• In combination with the Scottish Lowland League and the South of Scotland League an U20 development league for the development of a player pathway.

• Automatic entry for the U20 team into the Scottish Youth Cup.

 

19 points,  4 of them regarding finances? Fixture list, u20 League, exposure in national cups, SFA Licence, pyramid?

Can you make a case for clubs in the East to remain a Junior club that will see them prosper? It’s slowly dying the best non league “blue riband” competition in Scotland can’t even get a sponsor and hasn’t had for years, 1 example of where it’s at.

 

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, A.M said:

We enjoyed the juniors for many years, 50 in my case, and still do , but with clubs jumping ship it looks like the beginning of the end with all this promise of milk and honey in the Seniors, and I say that because the Kelty man was lauded for the examples he put up about benefits for seniors over juniors ....every benefit was money orientated, never once was quality of football mentioned..

 

Is "Milk & Honey" the Junior equivalent of "Strong & Stable", keep repeating it and you might convince yourself?

As for the benefits, you are wrong it is not all about the money.  For us, access to the U20 league is a benefit, fixture lists are a great benefit for planning and sponsorship, and of course, no glass ceiling to progress. Simply put, better organisation is a benefit as is becoming part of the mainstream footballing world.  That was all detailed in the excellent post from kefc.

Yes, a big part is also about the finance possibilities, but what exactly is wrong with clubs seeking to move to a better organised league system which enables you to become Licenced and access payments which as Juniors you can only ever dream about?  It helps improve clubs both  on and off the pitch and provide stability, yet you portray it in a negative light, which is frankly puzzling as a club who have benefitted from the income from participation in the Scottish Cup.

I've enjoyed Junior football for 38 years since my first game. It's time to move on.

[LongTimeLurker]

8 hours ago, DavidMcG said:

Sauchie, St Andrews and Bathgate all saying adios to the juniors 

 

4 minutes ago, the tin man said:

Duniplace mussy blackburn dalkeith Edinburgh Dunbar camelon blackburn easthouses hill of beath bonnyrigg n tranent make up the teams applied

15 junior applicants fits what's in the Edinburgh News if two amateur clubs have also applied and the possibility of two being relegated from the LL is factored:

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/lower-leagues/substantial-number-of-teams-apply-for-eos-league-1-4717330

...While admitting his committee have quite a process in establishing a new EoS set-up for next term, a shake-up that could see the number of clubs in the league rise from its current 13 to 32, Greenhorn says he has been blown away by the level of interest shown...

[LongTimeLurker]

18 minutes ago, Jason King said:

Dunipace are I believe going plastic over the summer but I do wonder why they would look to move East - I assume that the distances going East will be similar to the trips to Ayrshire they would be making in the new West setup.

Being in the old Central League setup would have made sense back in the 1970s when it was viewed as the strongest of the junior regions, but why would they want to miss out on things like their natural local derby with Camelon nowadays? Think the only surprise is that it has taken this long for them to look east (assuming the info is correct).

Edited April 3, 2018 by LongTimeLurker

[A.M]

Burnie_man and Kefc, yes a fixture list is an advantage but surely could be attained in juniors ?

Many clubs struggle to keep one team going never mind under 20s , great for the clubs who can manage that, I am not saying its all negative.

Kefc, only four have a figure next to them but many more are financially orientated.

I dont see the big decline in the Juniors as some of you advocates do, but I believe many clubs will go to the wall in this set up , I may be wrong but then again there is also the possibility that you guys could be wrong too ?

Neither of you mentioned my point about the vote that will have to take place on any formal proposal , considering as I said 74 clubs want to join at tier 5 ?

BTW  the SFA tier above will also have to be consulted for their approval after any vote in the juniors and as Kefc said earlier I dont think they will just roll over.

[kefc]

Don’t see why money is so taboo, it’s not handed out like confetti, it’s earned and given by people or organisations who respect the work you have done on off the pitch. Talbot have done no too bad through the years taking money off the SFA.

The money clubs receive as rewards will be re-invested to better them be that their ground or into the structure if the club. By being Licenced this has enabled us to start an u20/reserve team which when you cost kit, travelling, training costs won’t be shy off £10k per season, this is an investment that we have no doubt will  benefit the club.

We are able to access different grants for ground improvements, a run in the Scottish is always welcomed for exposure and financially.

You either hang onto something not so good for nostalgic or historic reasons or look ahead and see where you can improve, everyone is different in life on how they see things.