Junior football, what is the future?

[craigkillie]

6 minutes ago, I’m a celebrity said:

For me I long for a return to the good old days of the old fife league when we were being visited by Haws, Kelty, Glens, St Andrews etc all local derbies which got the fans through the gates as this is when junior football certainly for me in fife was most competive.

Don’t get me wrong I loved it when we were part of the super league rubbing shoulders with the top junior sides but a rapid decline has seen us drop down to the south league and to be honest it’s not enjoyable watching us against West Calder harthill  stoneyburn etc etc it just isn’t the same.

junior football is in a rapid decline but having said that I just don’t see the benefit in us moving to a pyramid system.

For the ambitious clubs like Kelty who got the financial and infrastructure to push the club forward to compete with the ultimate goal of joining the SFL then fair play, but for clubs like ourselves I severely worry about the future.

The point of a pyramid system is that clubs such as yours would end up playing in some sort of Fife/Fife & Lothians league, against existing Junior clubs plus possibly the likes of Burntisland and some of the leading amateur clubs from the area.  The likes of West Calder and Harthill would have their own Central Scotland league or something similar.  Both of these leagues would lie below some sort of East of Scotland League, which would then lie below the Lowland League (at least in the short term).  Not every team in the pyramid has to have aspirations of playing in the SPFL.

[Ivo den Bieman]

20 minutes ago, MEADOWXI said:

 

Totally agree

In Aberdeen and the lack of coverage of the teams in the city never mind in the Shire in the P&J and EE is pitiful

East End will be crowned East Champs this week, probably, and back into the Superleague next season

Plenty to be positive about and a great opportunity to bring things together

 

 

amateur football is better covered in the Glasgow tabloids than junior football is in their Aberdeen/shire equivalents. The visibility of these teams beyond immediate committee /friends /family (with the possible exception of BoD) is zero.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

 

amateur football is better covered in the Glasgow tabloids than junior football is in their Aberdeen/shire equivalents. The visibility of these teams beyond immediate committee /friends /family (with the possible exception of BoD) is zero.

What do people think is the best solution for the NRJFA clubs and what would the HFL attitude be if they entered en-masse filling in at tier 6 and 7?

[1320Lichtie]

 
amateur football is better covered in the Glasgow tabloids than junior football is in their Aberdeen/shire equivalents. The visibility of these teams beyond immediate committee /friends /family (with the possible exception of BoD) is zero.

Totally different animal down there. I do not know of one person who would say they were a supporter of Arbroath Vics, sure you wouldn’t know any or many supporters of the Roselea too.

Up here it’s just viewed as the next step up for players who are doing well in the amateur league.

[EdTheDuck]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

What do people think is the best solution for the NRJFA clubs and what would the HFL attitude be if they entered en-masse filling in at tier 6 and 7?

I agree with Craigkillie on the previous page. 

Hang the existing North, NE & Tayside Juniors onto the HFL and if clubs want to seriously consider improving infrastructure & finances to join the HFL and above then they can. If they want to stay in the Aberdeenshire East Division playing their local rivals on essentially a public park with a chicken wire fence around that's fine too.

I don't know if the HFL would 'resist' as such as even resisting suggests some kind of deliberate, cognitive action.  There just seems to be an inertia about the HFL, a general ‘this is how it’s always been done’ sort of listlessness.

They may go into shock if forced to change.

ETA The Lowland League, btw, definitely at some point has to become the LL(East) and the LL(West).

I’d relegate 10^th and stick 9^th from League 2 into a round robin with the 3 champions to play for the two places available.

Edited April 11, 2018 by EdTheDuck

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

I agree with Craigkillie on the previous page. 

Hang the existing North, NE & Tayside Juniors onto the HFL and if clubs want to seriously consider improving infrastructure & finances to join the HFL and above then they can. If they want to stay in the Aberdeenshire East Division playing their local rivals on essentially a public park with a chicken wire fence around that's fine too.

I don't know if the HFL would 'resist' as such as even resisting suggests some kind of deliberate, cognitive action.  There just seems to be an inertia about the HFL, a general ‘this is how it’s always been done’ sort of listlessness.

They may go into shock if forced to change.

ETA The Lowland League, btw, definitely at some point has to become the LL(East) and the LL(West).

 

I’d relegate 10^th and stick 9^th from League 2 into a round robin with the 3 champions to play for the two places available.

 

Tayside and Perthshire clubs are in an odd position.  The SFA consider them to be in HL territory, the SJFA consider them to be in East of Scotland territory.  The SFA have probably got it right, but many of these clubs would disagree.  Just one of the problems to overcome before the SJFA can enter into tier 6 in the East (and North).

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Tayside and Perthshire clubs are in an odd position.  The SFA consider them to be in HL territory, the SJFA consider them to be in East of Scotland territory.  The SFA have probably got it right, but many of these clubs would disagree.  Just one of the problems to overcome before the SJFA can enter into tier 6 in the East (and North).

You could also argue it was a problem created with the SJFA not being involved in the early part of the pyramid process. As the HFL and EoSFL are unaffected by the boundary no one was there to voice a difference of opinion.

The best bet in the north is probably the same in the west. Form a new NoSFL from interested parties and leave those that want to be juniors or NCFL to themselves.

[SimonLichtie]

3 hours ago, HTG said:

The point I was responding to was whether the SJFA were using a conversation from 6 years ago. They were not.  That's all I wanted to clarify to a post starting with "okay so unless I've got something wrong here". That was and is incorrect. The conversation was much more recent. 

Thanks for clarifying that - I am more than happy to be corrected on things I've got wrong as many posters on these forums will know more than I do. Like everyone should, I want to get all the facts on this right in order to have a proper, informed opinion on it

I'd be very, very surprised if in the East the SFA were accepting of juniors merging into level 6 however I could obviously be wrong on that.

[santheman]

4 hours ago, Fife Journeyman said:

What baffles me is and nothing really to do with  this paticular discussion but junior clubs cant play under lights midweek in the winter to possibly catch up on fixtures for reasons i dont know yet Linlithgow were allowed to  have 2.30pm  kick offs  through the winter under lights and are also kicking off at 7.30 v Lochore next week  when other games are 6.45.

would love someone in the know to explain that one.

There is a popular misconception that there is some kind of "ban" on the use of floodlights in the juniors.

There is no ban.

There is a rule that says both teams must be in agreement to their use and that is where the problems arise as some teams take the view that it somehow gives the home team some kind of advantage and others say it is harder to have a full squad available midweek when travelling is involved.

Have never personally agreed with any of those excuses.

 

[cmontheloknow]

22 minutes ago, santheman said:

There is a popular misconception that there is some kind of "ban" on the use of floodlights in the juniors.

There is no ban.

There is a rule that says both teams must be in agreement to their use and that is where the problems arise as some teams take the view that it somehow gives the home team some kind of advantage and others say it is harder to have a full squad available midweek when travelling is involved.

Have never personally agreed with any of those excuses.

 

And on the latter, some clubs will be playing 3/4 times a week anyway!

[Burnie_man]

In an attempt to pull some of the information together and summarise what’s known of the SJFA’s approach to gaining entry to the Pyramid, and on the basis that they want to remain intact with the current structures at tier 6, here are some of the challenges they face;

EGM - Attempting to gain consensus amongst the member clubs to bring the Association in its entirety into the Pyramid intact, including those whose primary wish is to remain Junior. What happens if some clubs refuse?

SFA – Attempting to bring the Association in its entirety into the Pyramid intact at tier 6 and with the agreement of all parties. Any previous informal promise made by Stewart Regan is now irrelevant.

East – Attempting to reach an agreement that allows the SJFA to enter the Pyramid and run a parallel competition in the same geographical area as the EoSFL and create two East feeders to the LL  This is likely to be resisted by the EoSFL.

West – Attempting to take the West Region JFA into the Pyramid in its entirety and become a defacto WoSFL.  How does this affect the 45% of West clubs who don’t want to be part of the Pyramid? Also where does this leave SoSFL?

North – Attempting to take the North Region into the Pyramid in its entirety and dealing with the issue of interaction with the HFL.

North/East - Resolving the issue of the Tayside/Perthshire clubs being classed in a different Region than the SFA consider them to be with the added complication of not all of them wanting to join the Pyramid, not all of them will want to travel North either to be part of any future HFL structure.

Lowland – In the event of all the above being successful, will the LL accept 4 different feeder leagues (EoS, SoS, West JFA, East JFA), and the issue of promotion/relegation  eg. Edusport would want to be relegated into the top West league, where do Dalbeattie go?

Juniors – Bottom line, some clubs are happy with their lot and just want to remain Junior. What next?

Then there is the issue of the Junior Cup, rules would need to be changed so as not to disrupt fixtures, will all tier 6 be invited to compete? The re-instatement rule would also need to be abolished to bring the game into line with the rest of the Pyramid.

This is the challenge ahead for the SJFA as I see it, were any of their points addressed at last nights meeting?

[Mr Illustrious]

I heard recently that Celtic have a league clincher coming up in a week in a half. Anyone of the “joining the pyramid is the way forward” brigade care to tell me where, when, what time and who the opposition are?

[Sunrise]

I heard recently that Celtic have a league clincher coming up in a week in a half. Anyone of the “joining the pyramid is the way forward” brigade care to tell me where, when, what time and who the opposition are?

And this has what to do with the junior pyramid debate?

[Mr Illustrious]

2 minutes ago, Sunrise said:

 

And this has what to do with the junior pyramid debate?

 

Rather irrelevant now. Just been informed the fixtures were released within the last hour. 

[buboy]

Your leaving anyway so don't worry about it

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I heard recently that Celtic have a league clincher coming up in a week in a half. Anyone of the “joining the pyramid is the way forward” brigade care to tell me where, when, what time and who the opposition are?

Theres a big difference between the negotiating with broadcasters, the police and other parties and one guy who just can’t be bothered following the rules.

[Hillonearth]

14 minutes ago, Mr Illustrious said:

Rather irrelevant now. Just been informed the fixtures were released within the last hour. 

Until the end of the season as well.

Meanwhile, we can only dream...

[HTG]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

In an attempt to pull some of the information together and summarise what’s known of the SJFA’s approach to gaining entry to the Pyramid, and on the basis that they want to remain intact with the current structures at tier 6, here are some of the challenges they face;

EGM - Attempting to gain consensus amongst the member clubs to bring the Association in its entirety into the Pyramid intact, including those whose primary wish is to remain Junior. What happens if some clubs refuse?

SFA – Attempting to bring the Association in its entirety into the Pyramid intact at tier 6 and with the agreement of all parties. Any previous informal promise made by Stewart Regan is now irrelevant.

East – Attempting to reach an agreement that allows the SJFA to enter the Pyramid and run a parallel competition in the same geographical area as the EoSFL and create two East feeders to the LL  This is likely to be resisted by the EoSFL.

West – Attempting to take the West Region JFA into the Pyramid in its entirety and become a defacto WoSFL.  How does this affect the 45% of West clubs who don’t want to be part of the Pyramid? Also where does this leave SoSFL?

North – Attempting to take the North Region into the Pyramid in its entirety and dealing with the issue of interaction with the HFL.

North/East - Resolving the issue of the Tayside/Perthshire clubs being classed in a different Region than the SFA consider them to be with the added complication of not all of them wanting to join the Pyramid, not all of them will want to travel North either to be part of any future HFL structure.

Lowland – In the event of all the above being successful, will the LL accept 4 different feeder leagues (EoS, SoS, West JFA, East JFA), and the issue of promotion/relegation  eg. Edusport would want to be relegated into the top West league, where do Dalbeattie go?

Juniors – Bottom line, some clubs are happy with their lot and just want to remain Junior. What next?

Then there is the issue of the Junior Cup, rules would need to be changed so as not to disrupt fixtures, will all tier 6 be invited to compete? The re-instatement rule would also need to be abolished to bring the game into line with the rest of the Pyramid.

This is the challenge ahead for the SJFA as I see it, were any of their points addressed at last nights meeting?

I'll have a bash. 

EGM - majority vote will prevail. If the survey result is accurate, it will pass. 

SFA - Regan leaving does not render any discussion irrelevant. He was representing the SFA not himself as an individual. The SFA will need to u-turn.

East - the EoS can "resist" but the SFA makes the decision. Not in the gift of the EoS to prevent it. 

West - teams who don't want to sit at tier 6 drop to a level they are comfortable with. Those not keen on Pyramid accept the decision of the majority or shift to an alternative association. If the teams are going in as is, this isn't going to be a big deal. SoS = same as EoS. Seems they mostly don't want to be travelling to Glasgow anyway so probably welcome non integration. 

North - not the problem of the SJFA. A matter for the SFA and HFL to resolve because the tier 6 teams will need a pathway.

North/East - not insurmountable. Potential to run a tier 6 north and a tier 6 south under the HFL same as for the LL. Teams not wanting to travel go to tier 7 or whatever level suits - same for every region of the country. 

Lowland - see above. They'll need to make it work because it's not their decision. Decision is solely that of the SFA.

Juniors - majority rules as has consistently been the case. Like it or leave (kind of what Kelty did in reverse) or drop to a level you're happy at.  

Junior Cup and reinstatement are not big issues. 

I'd go as far as to say none of these are big issues for the SJFA. If the SFA is supportive of juniors in the Pyramid at tier 6, that's where they'll go. Like everything else in life it can be made to work and rationalised over time. 

Let's not be continually hooked up by the application deadlines for a different league. That lies at the heart of much of this now but only deals with a small number of clubs in a relatively narrow area. If the juniors are going in their top league teams will all start at the same level. 

If the SFA doesn't approve that, disregard all of this. If they do, it's all valid. In my very personal opinion. 

[NJ2]

There’s an interesting interview with Tam Courts on the soccer fm podcast. Talks about why Kelty took the decision for those interested.

[stanley]

Whatever happens, a tier six of EoS, SoS, East juniors and West juniors would be absolutely ridiculous and should be avoided at all costs.