Junior football, what is the future?

[Kilbowie Benches]

I think if the SFA took away the Juniors Scottish Cup places it might focus a few minds!

[theshed]

No disrespect shed but you've it once in 80 years where as you would receive money from senior Scottish every year which can only improve your club and of course the chance of a big draw in the senior cup as opposed to say Talbot again or one of the other west premier clubs for the umpteenth time . I know what I would prefer. 

I know exactly what you're saying mate and I do see the bigger picture I really do but also that one win of the Scottish junior cup in 80 years eclipses anything , it eclipses our two enjoyable Scottish senior involvements with ease and it would eclipse another 80 Scottish senior cup involvements - I totally get you regarding financial aspects of the senior Scottish that's a total no brainer and can earn clubs extremely tidy funds that can be put Into ground improvements etc etc .

But ........ The Scottish junior cup is gigantic to myself and other junior fans - I'm not a dinosaur and I like to embrace change but the Scottish junior cup is a trophy we can win and have the best footballing days of our lives in doing so , the senior cup is great too but ultimately youre just working your way to an eventual hiding as the bridge gets too far , that's not being negative and defeatist , that's just being realistic .

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, theshed said:

I know exactly what you're saying mate and I do see the bigger picture I really do but also that one win of the Scottish junior cup in 80 years eclipses anything , it eclipses our two enjoyable Scottish senior involvements with ease and it would eclipse another 80 Scottish senior cup involvements - I totally get you regarding financial aspects of the senior Scottish that's a total no brainer and can earn clubs extremely tidy funds that can be put Into ground improvements etc etc .

But ........ The Scottish junior cup is gigantic to myself and other junior fans - I'm not a dinosaur and I like to embrace change but the Scottish junior cup is a trophy we can win and have the best footballing days of our lives in doing so , the senior cup is great too but ultimately youre just working your way to an eventual hiding as the bridge gets too far , that's not being negative and defeatist , that's just being realistic .

The Junior Cup is not gigantic to everyone.  It might be to those who follow clubs that are in with a realistic chance of winning it, which is less than 10% of clubs. For the rest it’s viewed as an opportunity for a nice wee away day somewhere as an escape from the rigours of league and local cup football and most seasons ends by round 4.  In many cases it costs clubs money to take part (Islavale didn’t enter this season for that very reason), a couple of long away draws could see you lose £500+ even with guarantees taken into account once you shell out for bus hire. Again, not significant to a club like Glenafton, but it’s a major commitment to smaller clubs.  It doesn’t even have a sponsor.

Give me the choice of a couple of rounds of Scottish Cup football or Scottish Junior Cup football, there’s no contest.  Perhaps if Junior football joined the Pyramid in an orderly manner then the Junior Cup could continue anyway, with the addition of EoS and SoS clubs as well to spice it up a bit, maybe even HL and LL.

[cowdenbeath]

4 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

I’d be amazed if the SFA had even thought that far in advance to be honest.  A WoSFL is a must if they are to bring in OF Colt teams, the league would be a Trojan horse to get these teams into the Pyramid without engaging in battle with LL members to allow them straight into that league.  I can’t see any other club initially fielding Colt teams due to the expense involved, although the EoSFL is there for the Edinburgh teams should they be interested.

That said if the SFA are thinking that far ahead, and I have my doubts, surely they would need to start talking to Junior clubs in the West as without them, you are struggling to create a viable WoSFL.

I suppose if a West league ever got off the ground the likes of Killie and Hamilton would be able to easily field a reserve side in such a league at minimal cost given they have 3G surfaces would maybe even cheaper for them as the wouldn't be travelling all over the country as they do now.

With Heriot Watt building a stand at the Oriam outdoors I suppose Hearts could play in the EOSL there and as Ormiston are getting away with playing in that league at the Hibs training centre Hibs could do likewise.

 

[theshed]

The Junior Cup is not gigantic to everyone.  It might be to those who follow clubs that are in with a realistic chance of winning it, which is less than 10% of clubs. For the rest it’s viewed as an opportunity for a nice wee away day somewhere as an escape from the rigours of league and local cup football and most seasons ends by round 4.  In many cases it costs clubs money to take part (Islavale didn’t enter this season for that very reason), a couple of long away draws could see you lose £500+ even with guarantees taken into account once you shell out for bus hire. Again, not significant to a club like Glenafton, but it’s a major commitment to smaller clubs.  It doesn’t even have a sponsor.
Give me the choice of a couple of rounds of Scottish Cup football or Scottish Junior Cup football, there’s no contest.  Perhaps if Junior football joined the Pyramid in an orderly manner then the Junior Cup could continue anyway, with the addition of EoS and SoS clubs as well to spice it up a bit, maybe even HL and LL.

Understand that the junior cup to teams like islavale and with all respect to them is a bit like the senior Scottish cup to us - not a hope in hell of winning it - however teams in the top couple of tiers in the east and west must see it as huge and more than just a day out , they need to see themselves as of at least having a chance of winning it or there's no point in entering it , that's well over 40 teams who should believe that they can win it , so called unfancied teams like largs and Renfrew have won it in the past and everyone should want to emulate them rather than seeing it as a wee jolly day out to get wrecked .


If junior teams were to enter into west pyramid league and a non league Scottish cup like the fa vase was implemented then it would do for me though.

[Jeek]

I don't see why the Junior cup would be done away with?

England has the FA trophy, teams play in that as well as the FA cup. LL, HFL, SOSL and EOSFL teams could be allowed to enter. Hell if playing local is so important, regionalise the first couple of rounds, I'm sure a team like Thornton, Edinburgh utd etc middling east junior teams wouldnt mind a Spartans / 'Shire visit. Admittedly less so a visit from Edusport. As a compromise, east juniors in the king cup? This really isn't difficult stuff.
2 up 2 down and being able to reject your promotion without fear of reprisal would surely help.

I play in England a d having the pyramid is great. We're at level 13 but every amateur team and whilst everyone knows it's at least theoretically possible to get to Europe, it doesn't effect anything day to day.

[GLESGABOY]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

What is “Junior format” exactly and you do realise that clubs in the EoSFL and SoSFL also play local cups and local leagues, what is so different from that compared to Junior football, what is unique?

There will still be a national non-league cup like the Junior Cup if the Juniors joined the Pyramid, no reason to abandon it.

Funding, well reading this thread will tell you about payments from the SFA, and also the fact that the Scottish Football Partnership will provide larger grant funding to clubs who are applying for a Licence(or are already Licenced) than those who are not, again read their website and speak to them. Speak to Kelty Hearts as well.

Scottish Cup sponsorship money, well I don’t think there’s going to be 100 Licenced Junior clubs anytime soon, but if there is, they will still receive considerably more than what they do from the SJFA for the Junior Cup, which is zero unless you get to the Semi’s, in fact chances are it costs you money.

A more professional approach to the game is obvious from the shambles we currently endure, just look at the West Region fixtures thread.

So as others have asked, what are the benefits of remaining separate from the rest of the Scottish game, benefits that should mean we don’t join a Pyramid?

So in summary, what do you see as being the actual figures that the SFA  pay to clubs annually that clubs outwith the pyramid currently receive? Is that figure fixed regardless of the number of clubs or does it get diluted by an increase in member clubs?  The funding available from the SFP is capped at 50% of eligible expenditure per club at £20k for SHFL & SLFL clubs  and even less at £10k for ESFL and SSFL . This will still requires significant capital expenditure by the club that applies it and any application will only be awarded when the applicant can show proof of funds. 

[Burnie_man]

23 minutes ago, theshed said:

Understand that the junior cup to teams like islavale and with all respect to them is a bit like the senior Scottish cup to us - not a hope in hell of winning it - however teams in the top couple of tiers in the east and west must see it as huge and more than just a day out , they need to see themselves as of at least having a chance of winning it or there's no point in entering it , that's well over 40 teams who should believe that they can win it , so called unfancied teams like largs and Renfrew have won it in the past and everyone should want to emulate them rather than seeing it as a wee jolly day out to get wrecked .


If junior teams were to enter into west pyramid league and a non league Scottish cup like the fa vase was implemented then it would do for me though.

That's not the reality though is it, how many second tier clubs have won the Junior cup in the last 50 years?  a small handful. 

Most clubs in the Junior Cup don't see themselves winning it - by your calculations around 120 of them - so why should they miss it, you're actually underlining the point I'm making.  It's a day out for them and one which could cost them money, you may not see it from where you are but that is the reality of the situation.

 

[Burnie_man]

Just now, GLESGABOY said:

So in summary, what do you see as being the actual figures that the SFA  pay to clubs annually that clubs outwith the pyramid currently receive? Is that figure fixed regardless of the number of clubs or does it get diluted by an increase in member clubs?  The funding available from the SFP is capped at 50% of eligible expenditure per club at £20k for SHFL & SLFL clubs  and even less at £10k for ESFL and SSFL . This will still requires significant capital expenditure by the club that applies it and any application will only be awarded when the applicant can show proof of funds. 

Go an look up the various posts from the guy from Kelty, he has laid out their expected income from the SFA and other sources on several occasions, it's light years ahead of what you could ever expect to receive in Junior football, which is almost always zero.

SFP funding is generally capped at £5k for Junior clubs (not always, but its rare for them to award more), so half of that which is available at EoSFL level, and a quarter compared to the LL  assuming your figures are accurate.  As with any grant funding, clubs would need to front some of the costs themselves or source it from other areas.

[theshed]

That's not the reality though is it, how many second tier clubs have won the Junior cup in the last 50 years?  a small handful. 
Most clubs in the Junior Cup don't see themselves winning it - by your calculations around 120 of them - so why should they miss it, you're actually underlining the point I'm making.  It's a day out for them and one which could cost them money, you may not see it from where you are but that is the reality of the situation.
 

Likewise a day out in the early Scottish senior cup can be a costly non profit making business too , say a day out at wick or such like in front of a hundred or so fans ,a good few yellow cards and a red or two ( was it £500 per red card in 2009/2010 or such like ?) , Pay your clubs transport , pay players a win bonus if the result goes favourably and you're probably seeing little profit out a journey to wick if not a loss, and all in a competition you can't win , pretty much like your junior cup analogy .

A pyramid would be welcomed but like our Scottish junior cup there are a good few bottom tier senior far flung fixtures which operate at a financial loss too, and at a level that our clubs would be aspiring to get to so it's not a great all round role model .

[GLESGABOY]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Go an look up the various posts from the guy from Kelty, he has laid out their expected income from the SFA and other sources on several occasions, it's light years ahead of what you could ever expect to receive in Junior football, which is almost always zero.

SFP funding is generally capped at £5k for Junior clubs (not always, but its rare for them to award more), so half of that which is available at EoSFL level, and a quarter compared to the LL  assuming your figures are accurate.  As with any grant funding, clubs would need to front some of the costs themselves or source it from other areas.

I thought you would know given you keep referencing it. The figures are accurate and the funding is only available from the SFP to clubs that are full members of the SFA and playing in  the SHFL,SLFL,ESFL AND SSFL for infrastructure improvements. Any other applicants would be dealt with by the SFP Trust and come under the auspices of Community. 

[Goalie Hamish]

The SFA don’t guarantee how much they will distribute and my understanding is that it varies year-on-year depending on profits and various other factors.  Should Scotland ever qualify for a World Cup or Euros again (aye I know) then their profit balloons and therefore this should trickle down to its member clubs.  More member clubs would probably mean dilution in pay outs, but not always. 

How much does the SJFA pay out annually to its member clubs and what’s the prize money for winning it?

East Stirling, Stenhousemuir, Arbroath, Queens Park, Buckie Thistle, Spartans, Civil Service Strollers etc enter the Scottish Cup every single season yet know they have absolutely no chance of winning it, what they hope for is to get through a few rounds and then draw a big club. No different from the Junior Cup in that regard for most clubs but in the big Scottish you know you are going to receive prize money and never lose out financially, and you might just make significant sums, Fraserburgh got that this year and game live on telly, Bonnyrigg benefitted last year.  That doesn’t happen in the Junior Cup.

I was told a while back by someone involved with a Junior club that grant funding opportunities to Junior clubs is almost non-existent, to have a chance you’d need to be part of a community club. How true that is I don’t know but it appears more difficult than if you were in the Pyramid.

[Goalie Hamish]

4 minutes ago, theshed said:

Likewise a day out in the early Scottish senior cup can be a costly non profit making business too , say a day out at wick or such like in front of a hundred or so fans ,a good few yellow cards and a red or two ( was it £500 per red card in 2009/2010 or such like ?) , Pay your clubs transport , pay players a win bonus if the result goes favourably and you're probably seeing little profit out a journey to wick if not a loss, and all in a competition you can't win , pretty much like your junior cup analogy .

A pyramid would be welcomed but like our Scottish junior cup there are a good few bottom tier senior far flung fixtures which operate at a financial loss too, and at a level that our clubs would be aspiring to get to so it's not a great all round role model .

I think the SFA pay travel costs for games like that.

[Burnie_man]

22 minutes ago, GLESGABOY said:

I thought you would know given you keep referencing it. The figures are accurate and the funding is only available from the SFP to clubs that are full members of the SFA and playing in  the SHFL,SLFL,ESFL AND SSFL for infrastructure improvements. Any other applicants would be dealt with by the SFP Trust and come under the auspices of Community. 

Well you’ve done your research so you’ll know that there is a lot more funding available from the SFP as a club in the Pyramid than there is in the Juniors, which was the point I was making when asked about the benefits.

[GLENAFTON93]

3 hours ago, Nikos K said:

It's far easier for glenafton fans to travel en masse to rugby park than it is to Livingston I was at the final and there was babies there as well that wouldn't have been taken east . I for one can't see what would want any forward thinking junior club to remain in a league where there is no chance of advancement to a higher level . Clubs like Renfrew , Largs, Rossvale, clydebank and even yoker who will have the set up to do so should seriously consider moving to a WoS league in the future. The west region secretary and his recent disregard for the constitutional rules should be a perfect example of why the juniors is never moving forward to a standard the clubs deserve. Any of the west premier clubs that are not interested in a WoS league show no ambition at all for their clubs future . 

 You have no idea  the ambitions of my club  and those in control take the clubs future  very seriously , but again a general slagging of the Junior grade does go down well with some. 

[newcastle broon]

1 hour ago, theshed said:

Likewise a day out in the early Scottish senior cup can be a costly non profit making business too , say a day out at wick or such like in front of a hundred or so fans ,a good few yellow cards and a red or two ( was it £500 per red card in 2009/2010 or such like ?) , Pay your clubs transport , pay players a win bonus if the result goes favourably and you're probably seeing little profit out a journey to wick if not a loss, and all in a competition you can't win , pretty much like your junior cup analogy .
 

 

1 hour ago, Goalie Hamish said:

I think the SFA pay travel costs for games like that.

Agreed I think they do also. 

Also I think the disciplinary card fines have gone now as well. 

[theshed]

Agreed I think they do also. 
Also I think the disciplinary card fines have gone now as well. 

That's two good things , I think it was a right financial crippler to get a guy sent off in the senior Scottish , not entirely sure if it was £500 but that figure was spoke about a good few years ago , that's okay for a full time club but not junior clubs and more so if it was early in the comp.

[The Mantis]

1 hour ago, theshed said:

Likewise a day out in the early Scottish senior cup can be a costly non profit making business too , say a day out at wick or such like in front of a hundred or so fans ,a good few yellow cards and a red or two ( was it £500 per red card in 2009/2010 or such like ?) , Pay your clubs transport , pay players a win bonus if the result goes favourably and you're probably seeing little profit out a journey to wick if not a loss, and all in a competition you can't win , pretty much like your junior cup analogy .

A pyramid would be welcomed but like our Scottish junior cup there are a good few bottom tier senior far flung fixtures which operate at a financial loss too, and at a level that our clubs would be aspiring to get to so it's not a great all round role model .

Whitehill have been to Wick twice in the past 3 years. Wick have a decent support. The gate was 400-500 both times I think and only a busload of away fans.  We got half the gate at £8 a pop for adults. The SFA pays £400 if your journey is over 100 miles. The penalties for cards have been scrapped.  You also get appearance money which this season is £2000 for round 1 alone.

Also we got drawn away at Nairn this season. The SFA made it the featured tie so they paid the whole of the supporters’ bus which was £700 on top of the £400 towards the team bus. We got to pose with the cup and the cup was out in front on a pedestal when the players entered the field. Even though the gate was only about 300 that was over £900 for us.

[Nikos K]

56 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

 You have no idea  the ambitions of my club  and those in control take the clubs future  very seriously , but again a general slagging of the Junior grade does go down well with some. 

You've picked me up wrong mate I wasn't questioning glenaftons ambition I was merely giving a reason as to why there was more glens fans at rugby park than Livingston . In general I said I couldn't understand why top junior clubs wouldn't want to progress again not slagging off the junior grade I actually attend quite a lot of junior games and try to pick a different one every week ..... weather permitting of course 

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, The Mantis said:

Whitehill have been to Wick twice in the past 3 years. Wick have a decent support. The gate was 400-500 both times I think and only a busload of away fans.  We got half the gate at £8 a pop for adults. The SFA pays £400 if your journey is over 100 miles. The penalties for cards have been scrapped.  You also get appearance money which this season is £2000 for round 1 alone.

Also we got drawn away at Nairn this season. The SFA made it the featured tie so they paid the whole of the supporters’ bus which was £700 on top of the £400 towards the team bus. We got to pose with the cup and the cup was out in front on a pedestal when the players entered the field. Even though the gate was only about 300 that was over £900 for us.

Well there you go, compare that to the Scottish Junior Cup where we travelled to Aberdeen East End in the second round.

The host club (not the SJFA) had to pay us half the gate or the guarantee (I think £220), whichever was the greater, given there was only about 50 there then it was the guarantee. The bus cost a lot more than £220, and of course there is no prize money and the SJFA in fact take a cut of the gate!

Both East End and ourselves would have made a loss on the game.  We then drew Colony Park from Inverurie at home next round, I think we just about broke even on the day but Colony Park would have had to shell out more than the guarantee for their bus.

As I said earlier, the Junior Cup is not "gigantic" to everyone, and examples like this are frequent and leads to the likes of Islavale saying no thanks.