Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

So the sfa never officially released any such statement. They produced some form of statement after getting the wrong end of the stick at a meeting and had to withdraw any such statement after finding this out.

So no official sfa backing then.
 

It's more than just some form of statement. It's the fact that after the PWG in September Maxwell went to the Professional Game Board meeting in October went here's the plan for Tier 6 in front of the SPFL, HL and LL reps and got approval. Then there was a backlash which is why the statement was never released.

Then 6 months later when the SFA were left to propose a Lowland Pyramid Playoff they came up with the same plan of Juniors in at Tier 6.

So there's official documents that cite the PGB as being okay with the Juniors in at Tier 6. The SFA Chief Executive okay with Juniors at Tier 6 and the SFA proposing a pyramid play-off with the WRSJFA and ERSJFA at Tier 6.

Does that mean that the SFA want them in? No. Does it mean that that the SFA only support the Junior side of things? No. Does it means as a relatively impartial representative in this they're trying to mediate from all sides? Yes.

 

[ShrimpLok]

On 04/09/2019 at 15:23, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Yes the boundary should be sorted officially for the whole of Scotland so EVERY team knows what league they will be in and could be in with promotion and relegation in the future..

|I'm sorry Burnieman, usually  what you say I agree with but East/north league is total out nonsense.

I am very objective in every way when I look at the for's and against's, I have no affiliation to junior, senior, north, south east and west any association.
I am more interested in the development of youth football throughout Scotland and can see improvements once the senior pyramid system is sorted but I still would not have my preference /  allegiance make my or have any bearing on my viewpoint and decision making. This whole process pyramid chat/juniors joining the Seniors is not to help any particular team or any league or association body out, the idea is to IMPROVE  Scottish football and so many neglect that fact.

Boundary's should be sorted and the Tayside clubs in one side, No Tay league or Tay/East league. 
No fecking East, South East, North East league. Your leaving everything open for a North West, West South. Your making too many leagues, with one area getting an advantage of extra places.

The north teams join under the highland league at tier 6 as they are going to be promotion/relegation with the Highland league

If it remains at Highland league and lowland league at tier 5 and then at the moment its East of Scotland league and South of Scotland league on Tier 6, then there should ONLY be a West of Scotland League to make it level for all teams under the Highland boundary.

The ERJFA are located in the East, its simple, they join the EOS, no exceptions, (except if boundary changes before enter so some teams will either enter the North or stay in the EOS).
They do not dictate where they should go etc.., they are joining the senior ranks and will fit in accordingly.
I seriously still cant over this, if the ERJFA don't go as one then what happens, a ERJFA team will apply independently and will go straight into the EOS if accepted so wtf are they dictating they should be a separate body, (Two East leagues, totally stupid)

If you have a EOS, SOS and A WOS, the three leagues will be fighting for promotion to the Lowland league and the North league will be fighting for promotion to the Highland league

I would love to see promotion or possible promotion to the Seniors from Tier 5 for two teams, both winners of Highland and Lowland league have a play-off final to see who are promoted as normal but the runners up will then go into a semi final playff off with the two second placed teams and the second bottom of Scottish Division two. The outright winner of the final will get promotion.  means its still competitive, exciting at the lower end of the league and hopefully stir interest and the teams of Division two cant rest on their laurels as they know hat two teams can be relegated from division two.

This post is less coherent than a Boris Johnson speech!

[Guest]

Thanks fair weather. You summed it up nicely for those who want to suggest the sfa backed the sjfa.

They didn't. They tried to mediate nothing more than that.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's more than just some form of statement. It's the fact that after the PWG in September Maxwell went to the Professional Game Board meeting in October went here's the plan for Tier 6 in front of the SPFL, HL and LL reps and got approval. Then there was a backlash which is why the statement was never released.

Then 6 months later when the SFA were left to propose a Lowland Pyramid Playoff they came up with the same plan of Juniors in at Tier 6.

So there's official documents that cite the PGB as being okay with the Juniors in at Tier 6. The SFA Chief Executive okay with Juniors at Tier 6 and the SFA proposing a pyramid play-off with the WRSJFA and ERSJFA at Tier 6.

Does that mean that the SFA want them in? No. Does it mean that that the SFA only support the Junior side of things? No. Does it means as a relatively impartial representative in this they're trying to mediate from all sides? Yes.

 

I cant make comment on anything that was said or proposed at any of the meetings unless they have been made public officially but I cannot see anywhere on earth the following statement, "Does it means as a relatively impartial representative in this they're trying to mediate from all sides? Yes.",  would any impartial mediator think that two East divisions is common sense. No impartial person would think that two East associations should be in the Pyramid system.    Even that alone means that if the NRJFA joins under the Highland league then they MUST go into tier 6 as well.  It would open up a huge can of worms and major problems to sort out due to two East associations in the Pyramid system.

There are a lot of sides, on this who have no intention of giving way and think that they are right but not willing to take in the pros and cons and that has been constant on this thread .

When was the official boundaries by the SFA introduced, have they ever changed the boundaries until now and do most think the boundaries should be looked at again due to the current climate if the current Pyramid system stays the same way but with possibility of over 100 new teams from the West, East and North joining. ?

Edited September 5, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I cant make comment on anything that was said or proposed at any of the meetings unless they have been made public officially but I cannot see anywhere on earth the following statement, "Does it means as a relatively impartial representative in this they're trying to mediate from all sides? Yes.",  would any impartial mediator think that two East divisions is common sense. No impartial person would think that two East associations should be in the Pyramid system.  

The initial set up for the Lowland League was going to have the EoS, SoS, WRSJFA and ERSJFA underneath it at Tier 6.

The intention then, as it probably is now, with the all in proposal from the SFA viewpoint is that further integration would happen. From the SFA PWG in March 2013

It's no different than how the Isthmian League and Southern League in England had some overlap. Although with Scotland being small enough you'd probably end up with the some merger eventually. It's only a starting point.

8 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Even that alone means that if the NRJFA joins under the Highland league then they MUST go into tier 6 as well. 

The PWG split into Highland and Lowland camps. When the LL never came up with a proposal for a new Lower Pyramid Play-off, the SFA came up with their own. As they were only dealing with the Lowland League play-off the proposal is only for the Lowland League section.

8 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

When was the official boundaries by the SFA introduced and do most think the boundaries should be looked at again due to the current climate if the current Pyramid system stays the same way but with possibility of over 100 new teams from the West, East and North joining. ?

The only boundary that exists is the HL/LL boundary. That only became a thing by 2014 with the confirmation of the SPFL play-off. And it has been looked at by the PWGs being split into Highland and Lowland sections and the ERSJFA still be considered in the Lowland League. Even the EoS suggestion of the ERSJFA basically becoming a Tayside only league seems to suggest it would fall under the Lowland League.

 

[Burnie_man]

6 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

We had already established that was where a boundary gets mentioned in the posts before that one.

Just providing the official wording and link so people can have a look for themselves. You're welcome.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

14 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The initial set up for the Lowland League was going to have the EoS, SoS, WRSJFA and ERSJFA underneath it at Tier 6.

The intention then, as it probably is now, with the all in proposal from the SFA viewpoint is that further integration would happen. From the SFA PWG in March 2013

It's no different than how the Isthmian League and Southern League in England had some overlap. Although with Scotland being small enough you'd probably end up with the some merger eventually. It's only a starting point.

The PWG split into Highland and Lowland camps. When the LL never came up with a proposal for a new Lower Pyramid Play-off, the SFA came up with their own. As they were only dealing with the Lowland League play-off the proposal is only for the Lowland League section.

The only boundary that exists is the HL/LL boundary. That only became a thing by 2014 with the confirmation of the SPFL play-off. And it has been looked at by the PWGs being split into Highland and Lowland sections and the ERSJFA still be considered in the Lowland League. Even the EoS suggestion of the ERSJFA basically becoming a Tayside only league seems to suggest it would fall under the Lowland League.

 

Thanks for that Fairweatherfan

The part on your post that says;

"The initial set up for the Lowland League was going to have the EoS, SoS, WRSJFA and ERSJFA underneath it at Tier 6.
The intention then, as it probably is now, with the all in proposal from the SFA viewpoint is that further integration would happen. From the SFA PWG in March 2013

It's no different than how the Isthmian League and Southern League in England had some overlap. Although with Scotland being small enough you'd probably end up with the some merger eventually. It's only a starting point."

No matter what, at the very least we will have at least 3 associations under the Lowland league which will be 'EOS', 'SOS' and, we all expect and in agreement that eventually a 'WOS league as well. The confusing thing not only having the possibility of two East associations but the fact of right now that's there is mergers all over the place.    The EOS most northerly team is 'Jeanfield Swifts' in Perth and with southernly teams including all border teams of 'Peebles Rovers', 'Hawick Royal Albert United', Coldstream and Tweedmouth Rangers and westerly as Dunipace and Stirling does this not mean that they cover nearly the same area as the ERJFA except a few exceptions including the Dundee and Tayside teams with the ERJFA having more Dundee and Tayside teams means that there is major overlaps.

It also means, correct me I I'm wrong that the associations wont work to different areas as they both merge but this in turn will create problems when a team is relegated from the Lowland, which East league do they enter.  If the ERJFA do join and join at Tier 6, then a boundary for all areas must be set and mean that teams in Both the EOS and the ERJFA must swap to be in the correct association that covers the correct area.  In order for the pyramid to work, every team must be in the correct association by Area.

 

Your posts also had:
"The PWG split into Highland and Lowland camps. When the LL never came up with a proposal for a new Lower Pyramid Play-off, the SFA came up with their own. As they were only dealing with the Lowland League play-off the proposal is only for the Lowland League section." The Highland camp must have been laughing as all they had to do was ask the NRJFA "Do you want to join the pyramid system, yes or no'

In all seriousness, The offer of places from the Highland and Lowland into the second division is offered by the SFA so at current form the way the pyramid work is that it offers ONLY a possibility of promotion for one of those associations  from tier 5. Both league winners  playoff to see who erns the right to have a play off with the bottom club of the second division. For many teams who maybe good enough it will take years to get promoted and it seems as if the SFA think nothing of any team below the Second division and they are not too fussed by offering no guaranteed automatic promotion.  It should be inspirational and motivating for all teams to know that promotion is a possibility.

i.e for example, the SFA could have both winners of Lowland league and Highland league having a play off to see who are automatically promoted as the bottom placed second division side are automatically relegated. and after this is sorted you could have the loser of the play off enter a semi final including 2nd place teams of both Lowland and Highland leagues and the 2nd bottom team of the 2nd division.  All this means that one of the Tier 5 leagues will have a team automatically promoted after the playoff final, (guaranteed), and that theres another possibility of another team being promoted and this will snowball down to throughout the league teams knowing there's more chances of being promoted

 

 

 

You post stated:
"The only boundary that exists is the HL/LL boundary. That only became a thing by 2014 with the confirmation of the SPFL play-off. And it has been looked at by the PWGs being split into Highland and Lowland sections and the ERSJFA still be considered in the Lowland League. Even the EoS suggestion of the ERSJFA basically becoming a Tayside only league seems to suggest it would fall under the Lowland League."

I don't think any of us are in disagreement that all those leagues and divisions would come under the Lowland league but to be honest it really now boils down that the truth be told there should be boundaries sorted for all areas, HL / LL boundary then boundaries for each association under the Tier 5 leagues - WOS, SOS, EOS and possibility or ERJFA and NRJFA. Basically every town, city, village with a team will know what association/league they must enter if they are relegated or promoted in the pyramid system.

 

ffs no wonder his has went on for all this time

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Marshmallo]

21 hours ago, Jeek said:

For the west

1. Create WOSFL
2. Invite applicants from the west
3. Go with what you have, be it 6, 16 or 60
4. Forget about those who aren't / weren't interested.
 

I think a derivative would work even better - rebrand the South of Scotland league as a West of Scotland league and invite applications. Run a conference system ala EoS season 2018/19. Set leagues based on those conferences. This gets a West league up and running and gets the SoS teams down to a more appropriate level quickly.

[Marten]

18 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

It might only reference the SPFL, but it's  obvious the knock-on effect is that the same principle needs to apply throughout the LL / HL feeders as per the Brechin and Forfar examples. It would be bonkers otherwise.

As you say, the LL used the boundary line with regards to who is eligible to join and who is not as a result (when applications may have been needed last season)

Even though technically the boundary is only for relegation from tier 4 to tier 5, I think it's pretty obvious the boundary will by extension apply to lower leagues as well. Imagine if last season's proposal of ERJFA & WRJFA at tier 6 would have made it. Then imagine Lochee United winning the ERJFA & the subsequent play-offs while Brechin City finish bottom of SPFL2 and losing their play-off (neither are that far-fetched imo). Then Brechin City would be HL next season & Lochee United LL. Now imagine that Lochee get promoted to SPFL2 but it turns out they can't make the switch to league football and get relegated straight away, they'd suddenly be in the Highland League! And with Brechin: imagine that their relegation gets them in financial trouble and they end up having to resign from the HL. If they then subsequently join a lower league, the ERJFA makes the most sense as that covers their area. If they then get promoted from there, they'd be in the Lowland League. Because of all this mess, you'd end up with Lochee United in the Highland League & Brechin City in the Lowland League, even though the latter are further north and both have been in the other one previously.

Surely this can never be seen as a serious option?

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Marten said:

Surely this can never be seen as a serious option?

Only for those that are trying to keep everyone happy or those that don't expect the format in year 1 will be the same by year 3+ for most of those permutations to happen.

Nobody expects SoS to be at tier 6 forever after all.

[Marten]

32 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Only for those that are trying to keep everyone happy or those that don't expect the format in year 1 will be the same by year 3+ for most of those permutations to happen.

Nobody expects SoS to be at tier 6 forever after all.

Those who are saying to just go for the original proposal from the SJFA and tweak it later forget the implications it will have for a club like Lochee United. I've seen them play a few times this season. They are a strong side and it's really not that unlikely for them to win the ERJFA again and then the promotion play-off (if that proposal made it). Obviously they need to be licensed but considering the good set-up there is already in place there I'm pretty sure there won't be much else needed other than just lights. If then it's decided that the boundary actually will stay in place and Tayside will feed into the HL, you'd suddenly have to shift them over from the LL to HL, with all the knock-on effects it causes. Such a situation could get quite messy.

[Burnie_man]

45 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Only for those that are trying to keep everyone happy or those that don't expect the format in year 1 will be the same by year 3+ for most of those permutations to happen.

Nobody expects SoS to be at tier 6 forever after all.

I don't think it's really plausible to agree to a badly flawed plan in the hope that at some point down the line it can be corrected.  Just get it right to start with.

As for SoS, I see this a lot. They are a senior league, why wouldn't they be entitled to remain at tier 6?  Sure, they are a weak league compared to the rest, but if they choose to remain at tier 6 and an independent league then it's their right to do so.  Probably the only way that would change is if the LL ever went ahead with a LL2 proposal.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, Marshmallo said:

I think a derivative would work even better - rebrand the South of Scotland league as a West of Scotland league and invite applications. Run a conference system ala EoS season 2018/19. Set leagues based on those conferences. This gets a West league up and running and gets the SoS teams down to a more appropriate level quickly.

I do not believe that any member of the South of Scotland League or anyone connected to the SOS, president, chairman, staff etc... would want to merge or rebrand with the West and thus incorporate all the WOS teams, there would be too much travelling involved and the SOS are in a powerful position being independant at Tier 6 but I could be wrong but I'm probably 99% certain they would not want it.  ( I haven't seen much of teams in the SOS league but from reading on here I believe most think its a weak league compared to the EOS, ERJFA and WRJFA, is this true?

 

Right now there's a power struggle at the East and it will eventually go either ERJFA, joins under the EOS or the ERJFA join independently as a tier 6 association.
I will say if the whole West moved for the 20/21 season to a WOS in the  pyramid then you will see big leaps on the East side and possibly the North region as both realise that there is no longer any West of Scotland Junior teams thus making both junior associations having itchy feet and knowing them would be best joining the seniors.

 

The boundary is a big issue, get it sorted from the start for all over Scotland and there will be no problems in the future for any team as they know what Association they will be entered into during promotion or relegation.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread
More detail

[Marshmallo]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I don't think it's really plausible to agree to a badly flawed plan in the hope that at some point down the line it can be corrected.  Just get it right to start with.

As for SoS, I see this a lot. They are a senior league, why wouldn't they be entitled to remain at tier 6?  Sure, they are a weak league compared to the rest, but if they choose to remain at tier 6 and an independent league then it's their right to do so.  Probably the only way that would change is if the LL ever went ahead with a LL2 proposal.

As it stands they are nominally the feeder league to the Lowland League covering the West of Scotland. That should be emphasised. 

[Burnie_man]

30 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

As it stands they are nominally the feeder league to the Lowland League covering the West of Scotland. That should be emphasised. 

Perhaps they don't want an influx of clubs from outwith their area, and they want to remain a stand alone league largely representing Dumfries and Galloway.  I think they would probably rather see a West league formed and for the SoS to continue as they are without being swallowed up by clubs from outwith their traditional area.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Perhaps they don't want an influx of clubs from outwith their area, and they want to remain a stand alone league largely representing Dumfries and Galloway.  I think they would probably rather see a West league formed and for the SoS to continue as they are without being swallowed up by clubs from outwith their traditional area.

I believe this to be so, as stated above the SOS are in a strong position at tier 6 and they would not want anything to change.

 

With the pyramid system we have Highland and Lowland at Tier 5 (basically the country divided in two)
Normally you would expect it to be a South, North, West and East at Tier 6 but that's where all the problems lie for different reasons and probably wont turn out as basic as N.S.E.W

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

If then it's decided that the boundary actually will stay in place and Tayside will feed into the HL, you'd suddenly have to shift them over from the LL to HL, with all the knock-on effects it causes. Such a situation could get quite messy.

The PGB already okayed the idea of the four leagues feeding the Lowland. The boundary has been discussed since then and the likes of Montrose never liked the idea of going to the Highland League.

If you ever got in a situation where people could actually agree to this the boundary would have been addressed.

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

I don't think it's really plausible to agree to a badly flawed plan in the hope that at some point down the line it can be corrected.  Just get it right to start with.

So the West Region entering as is and not addressing the East Region's place in the pyramid is getting things right from the start?

Or is that not a badly flawed plan hoping it will get corrected further down the line?

[Burnie_man]

17 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

So the West Region entering as is and not addressing the East Region's place in the pyramid is getting things right from the start?

Or is that not a badly flawed plan hoping it will get corrected further down the line?

Of course not, because it would not be linked to the fate of the east (which actually IS the flawed part) so how could bringing in the west as the first step be a flawed plan that needs correcting? what would need correcting?

Edited September 6, 2019 by Burnie_man

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Of course not, because it would not be linked to the fate of the east (which actually IS the flawed part) so how could bringing in the west as the first step be a flawed plan that needs correcting? what would need correcting?

Because you still have an entire region sitting outside the pyramid.

So everyone in playing by the same rules and shared calendar. Dreadful idea, badly drawn, its never going to lead any streamlining and merger of leagues.

Just the West in. North outside. East outside with no addressing of the boundary concerns. Job done! Pyramid sorted. Nothing needs corrected.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

9 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Because you still have an entire region sitting outside the pyramid.

So everyone in playing by the same rules and shared calendar. Dreadful idea, badly drawn, its never going to lead any streamlining and merger of leagues.

Just the West in. North outside. East outside with no addressing of the boundary concerns. Job done! Pyramid sorted. Nothing needs corrected.

Have to admit, the West is a separate entity to the East. it will not affect the EOS or the ERJFA if the WRJFA fills the gap for a WOS.
This would means there's an EOS and a WOS and a SOS.   The boundaries do however have to get sorted once and for all and on the perusal that all teams, including junior ones were in the pyramid.   Meaning if a team is relegated from the Highland then if there was a North of Scotland that relegated team would fall into a NOS.
If a Lowland team were relegated then they would fall into either the WOS, SOS or the EOS, depending on their location.

That is without doubt the simplest method possible but probably with all the carry on it wont wash that way but certainly the WEST joining the pyramid makes no difference to the ERJFA except give the ER|JFA itchy feet knowing there is no junior teams in the west.