Junior football, what is the future?

[Guest]

I think you might have mis-interpreted slightly. The LL already know option z isn't going to happen, they are proactively seeking to present an alternative before atte nding any meeting.

In essence bringing a solution to a problem rather than just the problem itself.

Option z is a non start for multiple reasons, if we know that why not come up with alternatives to discuss?

The LL, eos and most likely the sos won't go for option z, it doesn't have to get to the meeting for them to develop another option.

Thanks again it does seem that way.

Feel it is wrong of the LL to be saying we don’t want option z, which is their right, but we will come up with our own option (that doesn’t seem to have been mentioned to the PWG). When the SJFA did this all hell broke lose.

If at the end of the day the stalemate can’t be broken then that’s fine, we have to create the WoS, but we are not there yet and until the PWG meeting March (or possibly beyond) we don’t know what the SFA are going to say.

[GNU_Linux]

Was that an attempt to remove Junior and Amateur clubs?  it could well be they're going about a similar result another way by insisting on a Licence.

It was something to that effect. I don't believe Alex Jack winner or non-licensed SOS/EOS would have been affected but only winners of competitions in affliate associations.

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

9 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Was that an attempt to remove Junior and Amateur clubs?  it could well be they're going about a similar result another way by insisting on a Licence.

It was something to that effect. I don't believe Alex Jack winner or non-licensed SOS/EOS would have been affected but only winners of competitions in affliate associations.

It should be licensed. The east south shield winner and junior cup winner. The rest shouldn't be in it even an unlicensed league winner

[santheman]

36 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Fair doos. I also believe the clubs, individually, should choose their own fate. If they want to go then go, if they want to stay then stay.

What frustrates me is a certain poster who has done nothing but muddy the water since day dot. What his agenda is I can only assume.

I would personally love to see Talbot, Pollok etc in the pyramid. I doubt it would take clubs, Talbot in particular long to get into a) the LL from tier 6 and b) into the spfl once in the LL. But only if that's what they want, which I'm sure they do given the extensive work over the years to get to where they are.

Agreed  it must be up to the clubs in question.

Different posters have different opinions and agendas which you can agree or disagree with without the rhetoric. It was getting  a bit vindictive on here for a while and instead  of convincing the West clubs that the pyramid was a good idea it was actually having the opposite effect on a lot of clubs especially when it was aimed at individuals and Associations who have had good relationships with these clubs for many years.

Some people will say that an Internet forum shouldn’t have that kind of effect but believe me it does. A lot of club officials look in here without necessarily contributing anything 

[Arthurlie1981]

I think you might have mis-interpreted slightly. The LL already know option z isn't going to happen, they are proactively seeking to present an alternative before atte nding any meeting.

In essence bringing a solution to a problem rather than just the problem itself.

Option z is a non start for multiple reasons, if we know that why not come up with alternatives to discuss?

The LL, eos and most likely the sos won't go for option z, it doesn't have to get to the meeting for them to develop another option.

If it’s a discussion point, then that’s a different thing altogether and I doubt it will be ready for next season because I don’t think it is fair to West Region clubs to not have a chance to discuss this as it wasn’t known prior to discussing the options put to them last week.

If it is put forward as a proposal then time needs to be allowed for clubs to discuss with their membership as this is a material difference than just moving the structure into the pyramid.

If at that point clubs don’t move then fine they continue where they are.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

If it’s a discussion point, then that’s a different thing altogether and I doubt it will be ready for next season because I don’t think it is fair to West Region clubs to not have a chance to discuss this as it wasn’t known prior to discussing the options put to them last week.

If it is put forward as a proposal then time needs to be allowed for clubs to discuss with their membership as this is a material difference than just moving the structure into the pyramid.

If at that point clubs don’t move then fine they continue where they are.

Suppose it’d be easy enough, PWG meeting this month, give clubs a month to assess and report back in time for a meeting in March, proposal goes to a vote at WRSJFA or the individual clubs and people move in time for a deadline in May if it’s a new league.

[Guest]

I'm not sure I'm being clear enough in what I'm trying to say here.

The option the sjfa will pursue is option z. The option they will say is what they are there to discuss is option z, because the way have played things thus far is 'our mandate from our clubs is this option'.

This approach means all discussions will ultimately fail. The LL won't split and the eos will never accept the ersjfa at the same tier in the pyramid, the sos will most likely wish to maintain their current status.

What the LL are doing is preparing for this almost inevitable impasse (again) and trying to put forward a viable option to include the west of the country in the pyramid.

To be clear, the sjfa don't have to agree to a pyramid league being created for the west of Scotland teams for it to go ahead. By virtue of only negotiating for one option they are pretty much excluding themselves from the pyramid (the cynic in me says deliberately to keep the sjfa in a job).

Again, sadly, because clubs are being misled by those they continue to put their faith and trust in.

[Arthurlie1981]

Suppose it’d be easy enough, PWG meeting this month, give clubs a month to assess and report back in time for a meeting in March, proposal goes to a vote at WRSJFA or the individual clubs and people move in time for a deadline in May if it’s a new league.

Still think it’s a tight time frame for clubs to arrange EGMs etc but I suppose it depends on the clubs and it could be possible.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Still think it’s a tight time frame for clubs to arrange EGMs etc but I suppose it depends on the clubs and it could be possible.

I like Arthurlie as a club, would hope they’d be going for a wosl if it happened. I think 3 weeks notice for an egm and then a week to prepare a response to invites to a wosl is fair enough..?

[Arthurlie1981]

I like Arthurlie as a club, would hope they’d be going for a wosl if it happened. I think 3 weeks notice for an egm and then a week to prepare a response to invites to a wosl is fair enough..?

It’s not impossible but could be issues getting a venue suitable to hold the meeting and I would hope the LL make it a condition to write directly to clubs (either them or PWG) providing information to make it harder for misinformation (deliberate or not).

It’s moot until we know what is said and the PWG.

[FairWeatherFan]

For everyone to compromise a little and carry the PWG forward to a full integration of the lower leagues and the SJFA. A WoSFL makes sense for 2020-21.

Option Z requires too many unanswerable questions, but a 3 way split at Tier 5 is a a decent goal to work towards.

2020-21 WoSFL formed, capped at 16 clubs. Priority given to those closest to licencing like the original LL.

Yes the West Region lose a number of clubs, but they would be losing a chunk of them in 2021-22 anyway under Option Z and at short notice because no one would know the numbers required for the LL West and what divisions they would come from.

During 2020-21 the PWG discussions continue over boundaries, SPFL playoff, status of the East with a goal of 3 Tier 5 feeders in 2021-22 or as soon as possible.

A WoSFL can actually be part of Option Z to make it work.

[wow-wee]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

The SJFA were also free to come up with other suggestions.  Indeed, one of the four suggestions (which was already rejected last year), was included at their insistence, quite why nobody knows.  The LL have come up with an alternative and who knows, maybe the EoS will come up with another.  Neither are the bad guys.

The WRJFA went about their meeting all the wrong way, it was a done deal behind the scenes with the ERJFA and what they weren't looking for was debate on this issue, indeed someone claimed the top table said the LL backed "option Z", which was clearly untrue.

The next PWG is next Wednesday, there could possibly be decisions made then hopefully.

Few questions need to be answered here yes you are correct in saying the top table did say the LL and the SFA only support option z and option W  and Y were and absolute no no option X was also possible but that left the East junior clubs out of the pyramid so the top table and a few other old gits stood up and said we must support our fellow club's through in the east so option Z is the only one we can agree on. So who is lying here TJ telling the West region nonsense or the West region making it up or maybe the LL and SFA do agree to option Z ?

[craigkillie]

3 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Andy Robertson is a product of the Celtic youth system - apparently released for being too small which is comical obviously.

Queens Park provided a stepping stone for his future career. Neither the club nor the league earned him the move to Dundee United, HE did it through his own self-belief, persistence, hard work and determination.

Queens Park provided a platform for him to play for a season, but it could just have easily been in a regional T4 instead of a national one, and for the same club - the competition and standard would be similar.

Bobby Linn played for Ballingry in East premier Juniors - way too good for that level and moved up. Simon Murray at Tayport to Arbroath, Dundee Utd and Hibs. 

The cream rises to the top.

 

Neither of those players made it nearly as far as Robertson. Of course, most of that is down to his ability, but there's also a lot of serendipity. If any one of his moves had gone differently then there's no guarantee he'd have developed quite the same way he did. Maybe instead of United he ends up at Livingston and then their style of play doesn't suit him so much and he ends up hanging around in Scotland for a few years longer and doesn't get the opportunity reach the heights of winning the Champions League with Liverpool.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, wow-wee said:

Few questions need to be answered here yes you are correct in saying the top table did say the LL and the SFA only support option z and option W  and Y were and absolute no no option X was also possible but that left the East junior clubs out of the pyramid so the top table and a few other old gits stood up and said we must support our fellow club's through in the east so option Z is the only one we can agree on. So who is lying here TJ telling the West region nonsense or the West region making it up or maybe the LL and SFA do agree to option Z ?

All I can say is that the LL wont have anything to do with "option Z",  they will not entertain splitting, they have no reason to.

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, craigkillie said:

Neither of those players made it nearly as far as Robertson. Of course, most of that is down to his ability, but there's also a lot of serendipity. If any one of his moves had gone differently then there's no guarantee he'd have developed quite the same way he did. Maybe instead of United he ends up at Livingston and then their style of play doesn't suit him so much and he ends up hanging around in Scotland for a few years longer and doesn't get the opportunity reach the heights of winning the Champions League with Liverpool.

It's a great story Andy Robertson: he's an Outlier.

He has made good decisions probably on the back of correct and wise advice from people with his best interests at heart.

Serendipity.... well as Gary Player said "The harder you work, the luckier you get..."

Or "The brave man carves out his fortune" and all that.

[wow-wee]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

All I can say is that the LL wont have anything to do with "option Z",  they will not entertain splitting, they have no reason to.

See this is the thing only a few people know what's going on behind the scenes everyone is putting their own spin on things and only time will tell maybe we will get some answers at the end of the month ?

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

It's a great story Andy Robertson: he's an Outlier.

He has made good decisions probably on the back of correct and wise advice from people with his best interests at heart.

Serendipity.... well as Gary Player said "The harder you work, the luckier you get..."

Or "The brave man carves out his fortune" and all that.

Tj obviously wasnt his agent then

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, wow-wee said:

See this is the thing only a few people know what's going on behind the scenes everyone is putting their own spin on things and only time will tell maybe we will get some answers at the end of the month ?

I suspect after next weeks meeting there will be a clearer picture.  The SJFA have always put a spin on things, the whole "done deal" farce last year was ample evidence of that.

[wow-wee]

12 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I suspect after next weeks meeting there will be a clearer picture.  The SJFA have always put a spin on things, the whole "done deal" farce last year was ample evidence of that.

Here's hoping my personal opinion is the sjfa should end and every club is all under the same association .

[Robert James]

4 hours ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

Thanks for the clarification. What I can’t understand then is, if the LL were interested in doing this then why not have it in the options presented to the west. Also I am disappointed that Rod Petrie hasn’t gone to the West meeting to give his views and allow for questions in a similar fashion to how he went the EoS meeting (I know there is a difference as the EoS clubs are members) as this would have avoided what has happened IMO.

 

100+ posts ago I did say that an SF/PWG rep , and a Lowland League official, should have been invited to attend the West meeting, to answer questions from clubs, they would then have left, to leave the WRJFA and the clubs to discuss the future in private.  In peoples' own lives, they usually like to hear both sides of a story, before deciding to buy into it, or not.

So obvious, but probably too risky for the SJFA.