Kelty Hearts & the EOS League

[bluedragon]

On 29/11/2017 at 21:07, Gordon EF said:

 

I'd love to see a good, competitive pyramid structure in Scottish football with realistic access right up and down the structure.

I have been following this thread with great interest. This quote sums up my view. The key words are “good, competitive” and “realistic access”.  

There is not a simple, one-step solution but there is an easy first step. Junior and Senior non-league football have their own heartlands and I see no need to disturb that for many, many reasons. However, a simple change needs to be made for the good of the game by the SFA for access to the Lowland League. They must remove artificial barriers for advancement  and ensure  it is based on performance and  club structure . The club that gets promoted into the Lowland League should be the winner of a play-off competition between the champions of the East Superleague, West Superleague Premier Division, East of Scotland League and South of Scotland League PROVIDING the club has an SFA club licence and commits to joining the Lowland League if successful.

In the 2016/17 season under this arrangement there would have been no play-offs as Edusport Academy from the South of Scotland League would have been the only club to qualify.  Kelty Hearts would have remained in the Juniors and would have continued to work to obtain their SFA Licence while trying to retain the East Superleague title to qualify for the current season’s play-offs.

The relegated club from the Lowland League would be placed in the most appropriate league at the next level down. This would be up to the SFA to decide and would be based on the club’s preference, number of teams in feeder leagues and geography. 99 times out of 100 this will be obvious but it is important that the SFA makes the final decision. This works very successfully in the English pyramid where the individual leagues manage their own competition but not who joins/leaves their league due to promotion/relegation. This is decided by an FA committee and works remarkably quickly and efficiently at the end of the season.

However, I am pleased that Kelty Hearts have chosen to follow the only route open to them and I wish them well. Ironically with only strong opposition from Leith Athletic and Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale they may have an easier path than if they had been able to gain admission via the Juniors in my proposal.

[The Mantis]

13 hours ago, kefc said:

These clubs along with East Stirling, East Kilbride and BSC Glasgow among others are strengthening every year and with the guaranteed £20k minimum per season over SJFA clubs the gaps only going to get wider 

Not sure where this guaranteed £20k comes from? If you mean SFA handouts it varies a lot every year . Recently clubs have got £4k for having the licence but nobody involved with the SFA ever says there's any guarantee even of that, it's discretionary.  Any other money has been SFA profit-sharing and of course the Cup. Last season clubs got a payment before xmas, this year nothing so far.

[energyzone]

Pretty much sums things up - neither the SFA or SJFA are taking a very active lead to promote or take forwards.

It's up to the interested clubs to push for a move. As things stand, nobody apart from Bo'ness have publicly stated their interest and therefore the onus isn't on the authorities to implement a change which might not even be wanted, apart from in this forum.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, bluedragon said:

I have been following this thread with great interest. This quote sums up my view. The key words are “good, competitive” and “realistic access”.  

There is not a simple, one-step solution but there is an easy first step. Junior and Senior non-league football have their own heartlands and I see no need to disturb that for many, many reasons. However, a simple change needs to be made for the good of the game by the SFA for access to the Lowland League. They must remove artificial barriers for advancement  and ensure  it is based on performance and  club structure . The club that gets promoted into the Lowland League should be the winner of a play-off competition between the champions of the East Superleague, West Superleague Premier Division, East of Scotland League and South of Scotland League PROVIDING the club has an SFA club licence and commits to joining the Lowland League if successful.

In the 2016/17 season under this arrangement there would have been no play-offs as Edusport Academy from the South of Scotland League would have been the only club to qualify.  Kelty Hearts would have remained in the Juniors and would have continued to work to obtain their SFA Licence while trying to retain the East Superleague title to qualify for the current season’s play-offs.

The relegated club from the Lowland League would be placed in the most appropriate league at the next level down. This would be up to the SFA to decide and would be based on the club’s preference, number of teams in feeder leagues and geography. 99 times out of 100 this will be obvious but it is important that the SFA makes the final decision. This works very successfully in the English pyramid where the individual leagues manage their own competition but not who joins/leaves their league due to promotion/relegation. This is decided by an FA committee and works remarkably quickly and efficiently at the end of the season.

However, I am pleased that Kelty Hearts have chosen to follow the only route open to them and I wish them well. Ironically with only strong opposition from Leith Athletic and Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale they may have an easier path than if they had been able to gain admission via the Juniors in my proposal.

That's  very straightforward starter for 10 so to speak, but it would mean Juniors no longer being Juniors plus the removal of the re-instatement rule and probably full alignment of the SJFA rules with the SFA's (where they differ), so maybe not quite as straightforward as you'd like to think as the SJFA would effectively be joining the Pyramid en-masse.

[Che Dail]

On 20/12/2017 at 08:11, Hillonearth said:

What's "doing a Fraserburgh" incidentally? 

Are you actually defining ultimate success as getting the chance of a payday against one of the ugly sisters in the cup?

Ultimate success could be building the club to: 900+ playing members from kids to pensioners including boys and girls. Strong U20s and ams teams, a top level women's team,  First team pushing for promotion to the football league. Great facilities. Full time employees serving the community. Annual turnover £900k+. Football changing and improving people's lives.

Need a vision, great people, critical mass and financial support.  Aim for all that and if you don't succeed then fail trying.

So if landing a £100k+ tie with Rangers (or Celtic / Hibs/ Hearts) isnt exciting enough for your town, join the pyramid and do a Spartans.

 

 

[Marshmallo]

Pollok announced tonight that there is going to be regeneration work at Newlandsfield. Let the rumours begin.

[kefc]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

Ultimate success could be building the club to: 900+ playing members from kids to pensioners including boys and girls. Strong U20s and ams teams, a top level women's team,  First team pushing for promotion to the football league. Great facilities. Full time employees serving the community. Annual turnover £900k+. Football changing and improving people's lives.

Need a vision, great people, critical mass and financial support.  Aim for all that and if you don't succeed then fail trying.

So if landing a £100k+ tie with Rangers (or Celtic / Hibs/ Hearts) isnt exciting enough for your town, join the pyramid and do a Spartans.

 

 

What a brilliant post, Spartans are Scotland’s benchmark Community Club.

[Che Dail]

32 minutes ago, kefc said:

What a brilliant post, Spartans are Scotland’s benchmark Community Club.

Thanks - Bonnyrigg and Linlithgow up there with all they do but (imo) both clubs should be LL...  Kelty a few steps ahead -  bold and courageous, an inspiration to the rest - good luck!!

 

[archieb]

1 hour ago, Marshmallo said:

Pollok announced tonight that there is going to be regeneration work at Newlandsfield. Let the rumours begin.

No rumours necessary, the details are here:

http://pollokfc.com/2017/12/21/newlandsfield-regeneration/

It's not so much about any impending application for licensing etc, more to do with dragging lavatory facilities forward to the 19th Century 

[cmontheloknow]

A lot of junior clubs, should they get licenced, would be stuck at 'entry' because of pitch size being below 110x70yds (unless things have changed?)

[HTG]

2 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

A lot of junior clubs, should they get licenced, would be stuck at 'entry' because of pitch size being below 110x70yds (unless things have changed?)

90m x 56m for Entry.

95m x 60m for Bronze.

Best practice guidance is 105m x 68m

There are additional constraints on the extent of gradient/slope either by length or breadth which I think would cause issues for some teams. 

[cmontheloknow]

6 minutes ago, HTG said:

90m x 56m for Entry.

95m x 60m for Bronze.

Best practice guidance is 105m x 68m

There are additional constraints on the extent of gradient/slope either by length or breadth which I think would cause issues for some teams. 

Ah that is good, it has come down a fair bit. Pollok would struggle to extend the current pitch though (102x64yds or 93x58m)

[HTG]

5 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Ah that is good, it has come down a fair bit. Pollok would struggle to extend the current pitch though (102x64yds or 93x58m)

If you look at the level of licence held by each club, there are plenty in the SPFL sitting at Entry. You'd be a while in reaching the point where you had to think about how to expand the pitch. Probably easier just to ground share. 

[Hillonearth]

6 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Ah that is good, it has come down a fair bit. Pollok would struggle to extend the current pitch though (102x64yds or 93x58m)

I forget the exact dimensions of the pitch at Lochburn, but I know we were towards the lower end of the scale width-wise when we got our ground license.

I doubt it would be an issue for most clubs tbh - maybe the odd one like Ashfield that's really narrow is all.

[energyzone]

If you look at the level of licence held by each club, there are plenty in the SPFL sitting at Entry. You'd be a while in reaching the point where you had to think about how to expand the pitch. Probably easier just to ground share. 

What does bronze entitle you to that Entry doesn't?

[itzdrk]

11 minutes ago, energyzone said:

1 hour ago, HTG said:

If you look at the level of licence held by each club, there are plenty in the SPFL sitting at Entry. You'd be a while in reaching the point where you had to think about how to expand the pitch. Probably easier just to ground share. 

What does bronze entitle you to that Entry doesn't?

Championship/Premiership afaik

[bluedragon]

20 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

That's  very straightforward starter for 10 so to speak, but it would mean Juniors no longer being Juniors plus the removal of the re-instatement rule and probably full alignment of the SJFA rules with the SFA's (where they differ), so maybe not quite as straightforward as you'd like to think as the SJFA would effectively be joining the Pyramid en-masse.

I was perhaps thinking of this more simply. Initially I would not disturb the distinction between Junior and Senior non-league football. The only change would be that Junior clubs would have a direct route to the Lowland League and then to the SPFL. It would only be at the point of entering the Lowland League that a Junior club would become Senior. The Superleague and Junior Cup winners already have entry to the Scottish Cup and so it is entirely consistent that the East & West Superleague champions get a chance of entry to the Lowland League but with the added hurdle of club licencing.

So yes it is a “starter for 10”.

I understand that my proposal is hardly radical but the key point is that catchments areas of these four feeder leagues virtually covers the current Lowland League area and you have a basic inclusive Lowland pyramid by default.  However, this would allow clubs to continue to play in the more localised areas in which they can afford to play without the burden of increased travelling costs that a more radical pyramid might bring. However, any club with ambition to move upward has a route to the SPFL.

My concern is that unless the SJFA can join the pyramid, even in this “light touch” fashion, they will have little influence over the future. There are some parallels to be drawn as to how the Northern League from the North East of England fared when after the first unofficial steps were taken in 1968 to form the English Pyramid. In that year the Northern Premier League was formed to bring together the best semi-professional clubs from the north of England. The Northern League was a very strong amateur league whose clubs regularly won the FA Amateur Cup and provided players to the England amateur team. However, as they were amateur they could not provide any clubs to the new league. The only clubs from the North East (Ashington, Gateshead & South Shields) came from the North Regional League (mainly Football League reserve teams). By the time amateur status was abolished in 1974 it was going to be more difficult for the Northern League clubs to find a way in. Today only two former Northern League clubs are playing at the top level of non-league football but only at Step 2. They are Blyth Spartans and Spennymoor Town (formerly Evenwood Town). Had the Northern League been able to provide clubs to the fledging Northern Premier League in 1968 then I am sure today there would more clubs from Durham, Northumberland and Cumberland playing further up the English Pyramid.

I suppose the moral of the story is that the administrators must not let boundaries (Junior/Senior - Amateur/Professional ) put in place by their predecessors be seen as a barrier to change for the good of the game today.

[HTG]

31 minutes ago, energyzone said:

2 hours ago, HTG said:

If you look at the level of licence held by each club, there are plenty in the SPFL sitting at Entry. You'd be a while in reaching the point where you had to think about how to expand the pitch. Probably easier just to ground share. 

What does bronze entitle you to that Entry doesn't?

Not a lot in the scheme of things at our level.  Obviously it's needed further up the tree. For a club with entry level, it's got a lot of stuff that's good to aspire to because it means you're doing the right things.  It also comes with a better share of the funding the sfa is able to distribute. It's not free money though - you need to be prepared to make the investment in your facilities and professionalism. 

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, bluedragon said:

I was perhaps thinking of this more simply. Initially I would not disturb the distinction between Junior and Senior non-league football. The only change would be that Junior clubs would have a direct route to the Lowland League and then to the SPFL. It would only be at the point of entering the Lowland League that a Junior club would become Senior. The Superleague and Junior Cup winners already have entry to the Scottish Cup and so it is entirely consistent that the East & West Superleague champions get a chance of entry to the Lowland League but with the added hurdle of club licencing.

So yes it is a “starter for 10”.

I understand that my proposal is hardly radical but the key point is that catchments areas of these four feeder leagues virtually covers the current Lowland League area and you have a basic inclusive Lowland pyramid by default.  However, this would allow clubs to continue to play in the more localised areas in which they can afford to play without the burden of increased travelling costs that a more radical pyramid might bring. However, any club with ambition to move upward has a route to the SPFL.

My concern is that unless the SJFA can join the pyramid, even in this “light touch” fashion, they will have little influence over the future. There are some parallels to be drawn as to how the Northern League from the North East of England fared when after the first unofficial steps were taken in 1968 to form the English Pyramid. In that year the Northern Premier League was formed to bring together the best semi-professional clubs from the north of England. The Northern League was a very strong amateur league whose clubs regularly won the FA Amateur Cup and provided players to the England amateur team. However, as they were amateur they could not provide any clubs to the new league. The only clubs from the North East (Ashington, Gateshead & South Shields) came from the North Regional League (mainly Football League reserve teams). By the time amateur status was abolished in 1974 it was going to be more difficult for the Northern League clubs to find a way in. Today only two former Northern League clubs are playing at the top level of non-league football but only at Step 2. They are Blyth Spartans and Spennymoor Town (formerly Evenwood Town). Had the Northern League been able to provide clubs to the fledging Northern Premier League in 1968 then I am sure today there would more clubs from Durham, Northumberland and Cumberland playing further up the English Pyramid.

I suppose the moral of the story is that the administrators must not let boundaries (Junior/Senior - Amateur/Professional ) put in place by their predecessors be seen as a barrier to change for the good of the game today.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, its a starter.  Out of interest, who abolished amateur status in England, was it the FA?   Perhaps the SFA simply need to abolish Senior/Junior/Amateur with everyone classed as "fitba"......

[cowdenbeath]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, its a starter.  Out of interest, who abolished amateur status in England, was it the FA?   Perhaps the SFA simply need to abolish Senior/Junior/Amateur with everyone classed as "fitba"......

Sure it was the FA who abolished the amateur status in England as it was just a sham with stacks of "brown envelopes".