Junior Clubs in the Senior Pyramid

[San Starko Rover]

I suppose the proof of the pudding will be next year when Kelty will in all likelihood be in the Lowland League.  Having watched all of the sides involved there, I'd genuinely be shocked if they don't at least challenge their first year in.

In terms of where current Juniors might end up in the Pyramid  eventually, there are maybe half a dozen clubs that could perhaps in time sustain SPFL football at League Two level, League One at a push but no further - potential sugar daddies aside - the main constraining factors being the size of the communities many of them represent, and for the city clubs the pre-existence of major clubs in the set-up already.

I don't think anyone's naive enough to think that any current Junior team could make it in the SPFL without a major squad turnover before they stepped up.

 

Think you’re spot on with this, it pretty much comes down to your potential fan base which in most cases is the size of the town vs number of teams. There are exceptions like Ross County but they pick up support from surrounding towns without teams. While not a Junior team East Kilbride will have potential to advance if they can gain a fan base from the town. Which Junior teams are from decent sized towns without a team? Bathgate, Glenrothes, Bo’ness? All these towns are larger than towns like Cowdenbeath and Annan so potentially they could step up if locals start to back them. Being well run will obviously get you so far but you need the fan base to maximize your income. It’s no coincidence the bigger towns and cities historically have the more successful teams.

[cmontheloknow]

27 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

 

FTFY.

The rest of the reasonable tbf.

I think 'failed' is putting it too strongly. I did say they had played at a higher level, to a greater or lesser extent. 

They play Junior for a reason but it's not always down to being not good enough. Pollok had both Winters brothers a few years back - you're having a laugh to say they failed at senior level. At a glance every current Linlithgow player was with a Senior club. Some were youth or fringe players, others first teamers for many years.

At Pollok we have 10 players who played 1st team football in SPFL and a further 5 that were attached as schoolboys or were in U20s/equivalent and never made 1st team.

Of the 10, league appearances / goals at Senior level were:

175 / 35
141 /25
113
97 / 3
76 / 4
24 / 3
12
9
5
1

There will be players at other Junior clubs who have made more of a contribution to their Senior sides but I make it that 15 of our current squad had Senior coaching at some stage in their career and therefore shouldn't automatically revert to neanderthal kick and rush brainless football just because they sign an SFA form for an SJFA team.

[BS7]

Looking at the average attendances of the 42 league clubs I think Bonnyrigg comfortably outdraw a dozen of them. In a league 1 or championship I think we’d pull in even more.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

When we (Linlithgow) played Forfar a few years ago I thought that's the level we should be aiming for just now.

Thought their set up was excellent. It will take a few years though as there is a lot of good side there.

That's how it stands just now. Imo if the top junior sides get a chance at accessing the prize money at that level they'd attract a larger crowd and better player.

[Burnie_man]

7 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

When we (Linlithgow) played Forfar a few years ago I thought that's the level we should be aiming for just now.

Thought their set up was excellent. It will take a few years though as there is a lot of good side there.

That's how it stands just now. Imo if the top junior sides get a chance at accessing the prize money at that level they'd attract a larger crowd and better player.

2,153 at Prestonfield, 1,168 at Station Park.

The potential is there for Linlithgow to do very well in the Pyramid and no reason they couldn't expect to average the high hundreds for League 2 games if they got there.

[San Starko Rover]

Looking at the average attendances of the 42 league clubs I think Bonnyrigg comfortably outdraw a dozen of them. In a league 1 or championship I think we’d pull in even more.

 

What sort of crowd do Bonnyrigg draw? How big are the averages for Bonnyrigg, Bo’ness and Linlithgow?

[lithgierose]

22 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

When we (Linlithgow) played Forfar a few years ago I thought that's the level we should be aiming for just now.

Thought their set up was excellent. It will take a few years though as there is a lot of good side there.

That's how it stands just now. Imo if the top junior sides get a chance at accessing the prize money at that level they'd attract a larger crowd and better player.

Are linlithgow even considering it now ,that bonnyrigg have decided to go.

[parsforlife]

I think 'failed' is putting it too strongly. I did say they had played at a higher level, to a greater or lesser extent. 
They play Junior for a reason but it's not always down to being not good enough. Pollok had both Winters brothers a few years back - you're having a laugh to say they failed at senior level. At a glance every current Linlithgow player was with a Senior club. Some were youth or fringe players, others first teamers for many years.
At Pollok we have 10 players who played 1st team football in SPFL and a further 5 that were attached as schoolboys or were in U20s/equivalent and never made 1st team.
Of the 10, league appearances / goals at Senior level were:
175 / 35
141 /25
113
97 / 3
76 / 4
24 / 3
12
9
5
1
There will be players at other Junior clubs who have made more of a contribution to their Senior sides but I make it that 15 of our current squad had Senior coaching at some stage in their career and therefore shouldn't automatically revert to neanderthal kick and rush brainless football just because they sign an SFA form for an SJFA team.

Junior fans love to claim that their a large numbers of players who just prefer life in the juniors, this isn't the case for 99% of players, even if their ego's won't let them admit they simply weren't capable of playing in the spfl.

I wouldn't say junior football is purely kick and rush, teams enter games with their own game plans and hope to execute them. I don't think its game knowledge that's lacking(although for some it is) it is largely having a more limited skill set that means players can't adapt as easily in games. If plan A isn't working they are less likely to have the ability to execute plan B, even if they know exactly what plan B should be.

The pace of play in the juniors is far slower, small parks can hide this as can playing against other slow players, but their is no doubt the lack of athleticism would be exposed by putting these players in spfl sides, a large part as to why many find themselves released. I think you have as much as admitted this in the past when complaining about the size of pitches used for cup finals

[Shannon]

their is no doubt the lack of athleticism would be exposed by putting these players in spfl sides, a large part as to why many find themselves released. I think you have as much as admitted this in the past when complaining about the size of pitches used for cup finals

The poorest athletes and most overweight players that I have seen try to play Junior have been established ex SPFL Two players who have not managed to even last a season in Juniors due to their awful fitness.

[Doonhamer doon south]

8 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

2,153 at Prestonfield, 1,168 at Station Park.

The potential is there for Linlithgow to do very well in the Pyramid and no reason they couldn't expect to average the high hundreds for League 2 games if they got there.

Plus 1000 and your looking at top of league 1 attendance and bottom of championship. Queen of the South core support is around a thousand with attendances boosted by the bigger teams in the league. This has to be what junior clubs are looking at. The building of the club's' fan base and testing themselves against the Pyramid.

[Hillonearth]

Watching SPFL development games, it's often all too clear that most of the players involved won't make the cut and ever feature for the first team of their club.

By the same token, every new band you see won't end up playing arenas and signed to a major label.

In both instances, once they're aware they're not destined for the top , should they just give up?  Defining either as "failure" is too harsh - in the first instance people enter into both endeavours because they enjoy them.

In the case of football players, by the age of 20 or 21 they'll know where there future lies - chances are  if you're not at least knocking on the door of the first team ,you'll get a job and gravitate towards a level of football that allows to to do what you still enjoy and be able to build a life outside the game as well.

 

 

 

 

[cmontheloknow]

9 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Junior fans love to claim that their a large numbers of players who just prefer life in the juniors, this isn't the case for 99% of players, even if their ego's won't let them admit they simply weren't capable of playing in the spfl.

I wouldn't say junior football is purely kick and rush, teams enter games with their own game plans and hope to execute them. I don't think its game knowledge that's lacking(although for some it is) it is largely having a more limited skill set that means players can't adapt as easily in games. If plan A isn't working they are less likely to have the ability to execute plan B, even if they know exactly what plan B should be.

The pace of play in the juniors is far slower, small parks can hide this as can playing against other slow players, but their is no doubt the lack of athleticism would be exposed by putting these players in spfl sides, a large part as to why many find themselves released. I think you have as much as admitted this in the past when complaining about the size of pitches used for cup finals

There's a reality for guys that are mid to late 20s, playing part-time with young families about the time commitment required to play nationally. For some their job doesn't allow the time off. 

I won't argue about pitch sizes - they are unarguably smaller.

Maybe it's different in the West where there are less opportunities to play Senior football - the bigger part-time teams in this area definitely recruit from above rather than below so there's always an eye on the next hand-me-down from the Premiership or Championship. The smaller teams - well Queen's Park do use the Juniors but their recruitment policy seems a bit haphazard- they signed some odd players in the summer. Albion Rovers more often than not sign from above. Do we count Ayr? Stranraer have used the Juniors in the past but now seem to be ploughing the loan market and nurturing young WoS talent in their U20s (locals play in the South). If you're a standout player at Pollok or Cumnock, who will sign you? If you're heading towards the wrong side of 30 at a part-time West club in SPFL, who will sign you at the end of the season? 

I don't have fully up to date squads but in West Premier the following players have been on the books of those 12 clubs  in 17/18 and have played  for 1st team (to greater or lesser extent) in an SPFL league match, bracket is highest level featured (I won't count players on loan to a Junior side from SPFL just now as that's cheating!):

Dean Agnew (L1)
Scott Anson (Pr)
Gareth Armstrong (Ch)
Adam Asghar (Ch)
Derek Barnes (Ch)
Ryan Borris (Ch)
Joe Bradley (L2)
Ross Brash (L2)
Keiran Brennan (L1)
James Brough (L1)
Ally Brown (Pr)
Paul Burns (Pr)
Payl Byrne (Ch)
Gary Carroll (L1)
John Carter (L1)
Ross Chisholm (Pr)
Thomas Collins (L2)
Steven Crawford (Ch)
Chris Dallas (L1)
Michael Daly (L1)
Grant Evans (Pr)
Kyle Faulds (L1)
Ross Fisher (L1)
Sean Fitzharris (Ch)
Adam Forde (L1)
Ross Forsyth (Pr)
Shaun Fraser (L2)
Alan Frizzell (Ch)
Scott Gair (L1)
Lee Gallacher (L1)
Paul Gallacher (L1)
Ross Gallacher (L2)
Graham Girvan (Ch)
Jamie Glasgow (L2)
David Gray (L1)
Stephen Grindlay (Ch)
David Gormley (Ch)
Ross Harvey (L1)
Grant Hay (L2)
Kieran Hughes (L2)
Adam Hunter (L1)
Allan Jenkins (Pr)
Darren Johnson (L1)
Phil Johnson (Ch)
Andy Johnstone (L1)
Scott Johnstone (L2)
Reon Juskowiak (L2)
Stewart Kean (Pr)
Calvin Kemp (L1)
James Latta (Ch)
Ross Lyden (Ch)
Willie Lyle (Ch)
Conor Lynass (L2)
Kevin MacDonald (Pr)
Kyle McAusland (Ch)
Martin McBride (L1)
Ross McCabe (Ch)
Sam McCloskey (L1)
Stefan McCluskey (Ch)
Craig McCracken (L1)
Gary McCulloch (L2)
Darren McGill (Ch)
Peter McGill (L1)
Conner McGlinchey (Pr)
Martin McGoldrick (L2)
David McGowan (Ch)
Liam McGuinness (L2)
David McKenna (Pr)
Stephen McKenna (Ch)
Marc McKenzie (Ch)
Sean McKenzie (L1)
Jamie McKernon (Pr)
Richie McKillen (L2)
Mark McLaughlin (Pr)
Kenny McLean (L1)
Ross McPherson (L2)
Craig Menzies (L2)
Anthony Marenghi (L1)
Cammy Marlow (L2)
Danny Mitchell (L1)
Gavin Mitchell L1)
Glen Mitchell (L1)
Craig Molloy (Pr)
Raymond Montgomerie Jr (L2)
Carlo Monti (Ch)
Scott Morrison (L1)
Andy Muir (L1)
Ryan Nisbet (L1)
Anton Nugent (L2)
Mick O'Byrne (L1)
Mick Oliver (L2)
Ally Park (L1)
Craig Pettigrew (Ch)
Gordon Pope (L1)
Craig Potter (Ch)
Andy Reid (L1)
Mark Roberts (Pr)
Chris Robertson (L1)
Ross Robertson (Ch)
Liam Rowan (Ch)
Willie Sawyers (L1)
Jon Scullion (Ch)
Mark Shankland (L1)
Mark Sideserf (L2)
Colin Spence (L2)
Gavin Stokes (L1)
Adam Strain (L2)
John Sweeney (L2)
Steven Tart (L2)
David Verlaque (L2)
Mick Wardrope (Ch)
Jamie Watson (L2)
Josh Watt (Ch)
Kevin Watt (Ch)
Steven Weir (Pr)
Bryan Wharton (L1)
Graham Wilson (L1)
David Winters (Pr)
Keiren Wood (L1)
 

[FairWeatherFan]

There's no real point looking at a Junior team now and saying the couldn't hack it in the SPFL. If they're in the Lowland area it's going to take 2 seasons just to get promoted there. It's about the clubs.

Its easy to say that the traditional title contenders from the Junior Regions, HFL, EoSFL & SoSFL can compete in the predominantly part time League One & League Two because their former counterparts Elgin City, Peterhead, Annan Athletic and now Edinburgh City have all done alright. They also aren't necessarily the biggest clubs from their old leagues.

You've also had the last years of Clydebank FC in the SFL competing in the 3rd Tier and doing well, despite the administration of the club being reduced to a Portacabin. Queen's Park as well as another example, Amateur status but benefit from being in the SPFL and the Central Belt to attract a decent standard of player. Put them in the same league as Pollok, who have a bigger support and can offer money, and I think Pollok might have the better end of the deal.

I had a look at Arbroath and Forfar because they were promoted from League Two last year. Two clubs that a lot of non-SPFL title contenders see as a similar standing and something that could be replicated. On gaining promotion Arbroath are listed as having made 9 signing with another loanee. Forfar made 13 signings and 6 loanees. As you go up the leagues there's a higher turnover of squads, some non-SPFL clubs are perhaps better placed in terms of their support and infrastructure that they could surpass current SPFL clubs.

As the pyramid grows you're less likely to see cases of Greg Fleming & Willie Gibson staying in Dumfries & Galloway but playing for Peterhead. But those calibre of players will still be in the SPFL, just maybe at an East Kilbride, Clydebank or Bonnyrigg.

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

There's no real point looking at a Junior team now and saying the couldn't hack it in the SPFL. If they're in the Lowland area it's going to take 2 seasons just to get promoted there. It's about the clubs.

Its easy to say that the traditional title contenders from the Junior Regions, HFL, EoSFL & SoSFL can compete in the predominantly part time League One & League Two because their former counterparts Elgin City, Peterhead, Annan Athletic and now Edinburgh City have all done alright. They also aren't necessarily the biggest clubs from their old leagues.

You've also had the last years of Clydebank FC in the SFL competing in the 3rd Tier and doing well, despite the administration of the club being reduced to a Portacabin. Queen's Park as well as another example, Amateur status but benefit from being in the SPFL and the Central Belt to attract a decent standard of player. Put them in the same league as Pollok, who have a bigger support and can offer money, and I think Pollok might have the better end of the deal.

I had a look at Arbroath and Forfar because they were promoted from League Two last year. Two clubs that a lot of non-SPFL title contenders see as a similar standing and something that could be replicated. On gaining promotion Arbroath are listed as having made 9 signing with another loanee. Forfar made 13 signings and 6 loanees. As you go up the leagues there's a higher turnover of squads, some non-SPFL clubs are perhaps better placed in terms of their support and infrastructure that they could surpass current SPFL clubs.

As the pyramid grows you're less likely to see cases of Greg Fleming & Willie Gibson staying in Dumfries & Galloway but playing for Peterhead. But those calibre of players will still be in the SPFL, just maybe at an East Kilbride, Clydebank or Bonnyrigg.

A good post, and the last part is true - the lack of options for West based players forces them to travel, the benefit of the East-based SPFL sides. By my reckoning Peterhead have 10 players from the Central belt and below with maybe 6 at Elgin, plus a good carload from Perth.

[parsforlife]

2 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

There's a reality for guys that are mid to late 20s, playing part-time with young families about the time commitment required to play nationally. For some their job doesn't allow the time off. 

I won't argue about pitch sizes - they are unarguably smaller.

Maybe it's different in the West where there are less opportunities to play Senior football - the bigger part-time teams in this area definitely recruit from above rather than below so there's always an eye on the next hand-me-down from the Premiership or Championship. The smaller teams - well Queen's Park do use the Juniors but their recruitment policy seems a bit haphazard- they signed some odd players in the summer. Albion Rovers more often than not sign from above. Do we count Ayr? Stranraer have used the Juniors in the past but now seem to be ploughing the loan market and nurturing young WoS talent in their U20s (locals play in the South). If you're a standout player at Pollok or Cumnock, who will sign you? If you're heading towards the wrong side of 30 at a part-time West club in SPFL, who will sign you at the end of the season? 

I don't have fully up to date squads but in West Premier the following players have been on the books of those 12 clubs  in 17/18 and have played  for 1st team (to greater or lesser extent) in an SPFL league match, bracket is highest level featured (I won't count players on loan to a Junior side from SPFL just now as that's cheating!):

 

Looking at your list their will be very few that will have League 2 sides would be desperate to sign. Lets remember guys like pope was hailed as a superstar went to ayr, failed miserably and went back down. I don't think its fair to say player X has played spfl and therefore is of that standard. You talk about guys over 30 being released by spfl sides and signing for junior clubs.  That's just the natural way of things, once the legs begin to go you start moving down the leagues. I'm sure in the summer championship teams will be looking at experienced premiership players being released and offering them deals.  Same with league 1/2 teams, they will be looking at guys falling out of the full-time game.  

For the vast majority of players the biggest clubs they will play for will be early on in their career, players get picked up as teenagers in  their masses and gradually drop down finding their level.  Some move upwards obviously, but most don't.

[cmontheloknow]

5 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Looking at your list their will be very few that will have League 2 sides would be desperate to sign. Lets remember guys like pope was hailed as a superstar went to ayr, failed miserably and went back down. I don't think its fair to say player X has played spfl and therefore is of that standard. You talk about guys over 30 being released by spfl sides and signing for junior clubs.  That's just the natural way of things, once the legs begin to go you start moving down the leagues. I'm sure in the summer championship teams will be looking at experienced premiership players being released and offering them deals.  Same with league 1/2 teams, they will be looking at guys falling out of the full-time game.  

For the vast majority of players the biggest clubs they will play for will be early on in their career, players get picked up as teenagers in  their masses and gradually drop down finding their level.  Some move upwards obviously, but most don't.

Again I'm not arguing with you (overall) but these players don't become bad players as soon as they sign for a Junior club. Gordon Pope played (and started) 32 / 36 games for Ayr in his sole season at Somerset so it's not like he was a bit part player that couldn't make the cut.

I don't think at any point I said 'Player X played for X therefore is of that standard' - for the 3rd time, 'to a greater or lesser extent'. Just a few at random: Willie Lyle, nearly 300 league apps and only 33, kevin Watt is now 28 but has 127 senior apps / 22 goals - this is his 4th year Junior, at Pollok Evans, McCluskey and Gallacher (26-28 in age range) all well capable of playing L2 and have 350 league apps between them. there are others. A good number on the list made fleeting appearances and moved on. But many others were key players for their club and dropped down in their prime or before. Playing nationally as a part-timer is not for everyone.

[Bluenortherner]

4 hours ago, Doonhamer doon south said:

Plus 1000 and your looking at top of league 1 attendance and bottom of championship. Queen of the South core support is around a thousand with attendances boosted by the bigger teams in the league. This has to be what junior clubs are looking at. The building of the club's' fan base and testing themselves against the Pyramid.

The figure you quote believe it or not was 1,500 hardcore support not that long ago, now it is dropping drastically due to the clubs playing each other far too often. I would expect teams Like Irvine Meadow could support Championship level if they could get that far.

[Sergeant Wilson]

4 hours ago, Doonhamer doon south said:

Plus 1000 and your looking at top of league 1 attendance and bottom of championship. Queen of the South core support is around a thousand with attendances boosted by the bigger teams in the league. This has to be what junior clubs are looking at. The building of the club's' fan base and testing themselves against the Pyramid.

Don't get carried away. Those attendances are the high water mark. If Linlithgow played Forfar in a league game it would  be significantly less.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

2,153 at Prestonfield, 1,168 at Station Park.
The potential is there for Linlithgow to do very well in the Pyramid and no reason they couldn't expect to average the high hundreds for League 2 games if they got there.

Attendance wise you are comparing Saturday to tuesday there but I see your point.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

Junior fans love to claim that their a large numbers of players who just prefer life in the juniors, this isn't the case for 99% of players, even if their ego's won't let them admit they simply weren't capable of playing in the spfl.

I wouldn't say junior football is purely kick and rush, teams enter games with their own game plans and hope to execute them. I don't think its game knowledge that's lacking(although for some it is) it is largely having a more limited skill set that means players can't adapt as easily in games. If plan A isn't working they are less likely to have the ability to execute plan B, even if they know exactly what plan B should be.

The pace of play in the juniors is far slower, small parks can hide this as can playing against other slow players, but their is no doubt the lack of athleticism would be exposed by putting these players in spfl sides, a large part as to why many find themselves released. I think you have as much as admitted this in the past when complaining about the size of pitches used for cup finals

Generalised nonsense. There's plenty teams play good fast flowing wing football and many players who have played a number of games at a higher level.