Minimum Alcohol Pricing

[welshbairn]

6 hours ago, Arch Stanton said:

Was at  both Morrisons and my local mini-market today. Morrisons  are selling Smirnoff vodka for £16 a bottle,  my local shop is £13.13 (50p/unit).

Why the difference? My local shop doesn't have an "own brand" to protect and doesn't need to inflate the price of Smirnoff any further.

Of course this won't be limited to Morrisons but all supermarkets who produce their own brands. If they charged the same for premium brands and their own brands then it would be premium every time.

So, if you want premium brand spirits, shop local and tell the supermarkets to GTF.

In Tesco all the standard blended whiskies including the own brand were exactly £20 a litre, 50p per unit. The Coop stopped doing their own brand bottles and litres a month or so ago but have brought in a new 50cl version. I could see the other supermarkets doing likewise or bringing their own brands down to 35% to keep the price differential. Personally I don't notice any difference in quality between the own brands and the likes of Bells or Grouse. I wouldn't call Smirnoff a premium brand either.

Edited May 2, 2018 by welshbairn

[ICTChris]

16 hours ago, renton said:

I voted Yes, I'd vote Yes again tomorrow and will vote for the SNP until that happens, but you'd go so far as to defend the SNP if they started rounding up everyone's firstborn.

 

Renton - While I have serious reservations about the cull of the firstborn, I will, of course, vote for the party introducing it while mildly complaining about it on the internet.

Baxter Parp - This cull of the firstborn is brilliant and in absolutely no way discriminates against anyone's eldest child!

Me - 

[Savage Henry]

18 hours ago, Glenconner said:

End of the day, this is aimed at the poorest section of drinkers. Just comes across as spiteful.

Nine pages in, and this pretty much sums it up.

Whether you agree with it or not, the reality of this law is that it is an attempt to curb the drinking habits of lower socio-economic groups. You can regard that as nanny-state dictating how certain income groups live their lives  by politicising food choice, or as a top-down attempt to improve their health.  It's not a heck of a lot different from sugar tax.

Either way, it's another manifestation of the 'big government' libertarian argument, and the weight of opinion would suggest that, despite Scotland's tendency to vote left, small government is still favoured.    

Edited May 2, 2018 by Savage Henry

[Baxter Parp]

19 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

Nine pages in, and this pretty much sums it up.

Whether you agree with it or not, the reality of this law is that it is an attempt to curb the drinking habits of lower socio-economic groups. 

Balls.

"Alcohol is now 60 per cent more affordable in the UK than it was in 1980. It is possible in Scotland today to exceed the new lower risk guidelines for alcohol (14 units per week) for around £2.50. This is an unacceptable position and we have a responsibility to address this problem."

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Health/Services/Alcohol/minimum-pricing

There is the issue - alcohol has been coming down in price in real terms for decades.  I find the portrayal of the drinking habits of lower socio-economic groups consisting of litres of gut-rot cider as offensive and demeaning, why on earth would you show such disrespect and disdain for decent folk?

This is a measure designed to save lives and all the brainless knee-jerk criticism in the world can't change that.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Baxter Parp

[banana]

What we need is to save the stupid poor by raising the price of things that have become affordable through hundreds of years of Morally Unacceptable scientific, technological and economic advancement. As long as the poor have choices like the rest of us, they cannot be trusted.

#progress!veplantation

Edited May 2, 2018 by banana

[ICTChris]

7 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

Balls.

"Alcohol is now 60 per cent more affordable in the UK than it was in 1980. It is possible in Scotland today to exceed the new lower risk guidelines for alcohol (14 units per week) for around £2.50. This is an unacceptable position and we have a responsibility to address this problem."

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Health/Services/Alcohol/minimum-pricing

There is the issue - alcohol has been coming down in price in real terms for decades.  I find the portrayal of the drinking habits of lower socio-economic groups consisting of litres of gut-rot cider as offensive and demeaning, why on earth would you show such disrespect and disdain for decent folk?

This is a measure designed to save lives and all the brainless knee-jerk criticism in the world can't change that.

This measure won't impact gut-rot cider alone though, will it?  It will make alcohol more expensive across the board, cans of lager, bottles of wine and spirits.  So if you are someone on a lower income who drinks a few cans on Saturday night when watching Match of the Day, you will pay more.  People who are tanning bottles of gut rot cider are less likely to respond to changes in price, if you are sitting on a park bench drinking luminous cider you aren't going to jack it in if it goes up in price.  People who are on higher incomes (who are more likely to drink alcohol and are more likely to binge drink) aren't going to be as affected because they have higher disposable income. 

I'm not sure alcohol has been coming down in price for decades either.

[Baxter Parp]

45 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

This measure won't impact gut-rot cider alone though, will it?  It will make alcohol more expensive across the board, cans of lager, bottles of wine and spirits. 

As other people have noted beers wines and spirits are affected relatively little.  A can of 5% lager in a 50cl can that was £1.29 can still be sold at £1.29 and so on. Gut-rot cider has been affected to the point where some shopkeepers are considering stopping stocking it.  Which can only be a good thing.

Evidence:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/scotland-minimum-alcohol-prices-cost-50p-unit-frosty-jack-strongbow-smirnoff-vodka-cider-whisky-wine-a8330681.html

"I'm not sure alcohol has been coming down in price for decades either. "

In real terms it's far cheaper now than in the seventies when I was a kid.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Baxter Parp

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

 

I'm not sure alcohol has been coming down in price for decades either.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/10682032/Beer-bubble-how-price-of-a-pint-has-risen-twenty-fold.html

[Baxter Parp]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/10682032/Beer-bubble-how-price-of-a-pint-has-risen-twenty-fold.html

Pub prices are unaffected by minimum pricing, we're talking retail here.

[ICTChris]

5 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

"I'm not sure alcohol has been coming down in price for decades either. "

In real terms it's far cheaper now than in the seventies when I was a kid.

Is it though?  Alcohol prices have risen by more than inflation since 1980.

[54_and_counting]

9 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

Pub prices are unaffected by minimum pricing, we're talking retail here.

If we are talking retail here, how many of the 392 lives in the first 5 years that they expect to save would have been lost because of the price of booze in the shops

BBC news did a report on it last night, showed a poor boy who suffered a brain injury due to being punched by a drunk guy on a night out, then it cut to a clip of police arresting drunks in the town at night

If pubs, nightclubs etc wont be affected by minimum pricing just what good will it do, what effect will it have on the number of nuggets who go out at night, get shitfaced and cause a rammy in a pub or club

[Baxter Parp]

7 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Is it though?  Alcohol prices have risen by more than inflation since 1980.

"Alcohol is now 60 per cent more affordable in the UK than it was in 1980. It is possible in Scotland today to exceed the new lower risk guidelines for alcohol (14 units per week) for around £2.50. This is an unacceptable position and we have a responsibility to address this problem."

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Health/Services/Alcohol/minimum-pricing

Please show your workings.

[Baxter Parp]

8 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

If pubs, nightclubs etc wont be affected by minimum pricing just what good will it do, what effect will it have on the number of nuggets who go out at night, get shitfaced and cause a rammy in a pub or club

Getting pished on off-licence or supermarket booze before you go out is  called "pre-loading".  It's one of the things that minimum pricing is designed to combat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/29441457/pre-loading-a-dangerous-epidemic-says-top-ae-doctor

[banana]

What we need are 'Progressive' breathalyzer-activated locks installed in the front door of every home in Scotland. Stupid poor must be protected from affordable goods in the home.

#progressivecareinthecommunity

[Lurkst]

1 hour ago, ICTChris said:

  So if you are someone on a lower income who drinks a few cans on Saturday night when watching Match of the Day, you will pay more.

An opportunity for the return of Hampden Lager?...

 

[ICTChris]

18 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

"Alcohol is now 60 per cent more affordable in the UK than it was in 1980. It is possible in Scotland today to exceed the new lower risk guidelines for alcohol (14 units per week) for around £2.50. This is an unacceptable position and we have a responsibility to address this problem."

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Health/Services/Alcohol/minimum-pricing

Please show your workings.

The sentence that you quoted is relating to the affordability of alcohol, not the real price.  The figures for affordability are a measure of the increase in price relative to the increase in incomes.  Alcohol has risen in price by more than inflation since 1980 but incomes have risen even more, meaning that alcohol is more affordable.  You can see this in the reports linked to from here - http://www.scotpho.org.uk/behaviour/alcohol/data/availability-affordability-and-consumption

Quote

 

In 2010 the Scottish Government instigated a programme of work to evaluate Scotland's alcohol strategy (including Minimum Unit Pricing (MUP), to be implemented in May 2018) called MESAS (Monitoring and Evaluating Scotland's Alcohol Strategy). The MESAS Project Team consisted of NHS Health Scotland and Information Service Division (ISD; a division of NHS National Services Scotland) staff who were involved in the delivery of the MESAS work programme, which comprised of a portfolio of seven main studies. The studies started at the beginning of 2010 and ran through to 2015, with the monitoring of routine data continuing beyond.

...

he MESAS annual reports discuss affordability of alcohol in quite some detail. The Final Annual Report released in March 2016 concludes that the affordability of alcohol has increased steadily between 1980 and 2007, driven mainly by increasing average disposable incomes in the population as a whole. Alcohol affordability has since fallen. This has been largely due to falling average disposable income, linked to the 2008-2013 economic downturn. Alcohol prices also rose slightly relative to retail prices. Since 2011, income started to rise slowly and alcohol prices also fell slightly relative to retail prices, which explains the small recent increase in affordability (Figure 16) (2.4 MB).

 

You can follow the links and see the raw data tables.

[ICTChris]

28 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

Getting pished on off-licence or supermarket booze before you go out is  called "pre-loading".  It's one of the things that minimum pricing is designed to combat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/29441457/pre-loading-a-dangerous-epidemic-says-top-ae-doctor

These stories are absolutely hilarious - having a few cans before you go for a night out with your mates?  No it's a DANGEROUS  "PRE-LOADING" EPIDEMIC costing the NHS a trillion billion squillion pounds a week.

What a load of rubbish.

[Baxter Parp]

1 minute ago, ICTChris said:

These stories are absolutely hilarious - having a few cans before you go for a night out with your mates?  No it's a DANGEROUS  "PRE-LOADING" EPIDEMIC costing the NHS a trillion billion squillion pounds a week.

What a load of rubbish.

I'm sure you know far better than health professionals for some reason.

[ICTChris]

Just now, Baxter Parp said:

I'm sure you know far better than health professionals for some reason.

If they are talking about the DANGEROUS PRE-LOADING EPIDEMIC then I'd say I probably do.

[Baxter Parp]

6 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

The sentence that you quoted is relating to the affordability of alcohol, not the real price.  The figures for affordability are a measure of the increase in price relative to the increase in incomes.  Alcohol has risen in price by more than inflation since 1980 but incomes have risen even more, meaning that alcohol is more affordable.  You can see this in the reports linked to from here - http://www.scotpho.org.uk/behaviour/alcohol/data/availability-affordability-and-consumption

You can follow the links and see the raw data tables.

Affordability means that it's more affordable in real terms now than in 1980, I don't know what it is you're challenging or why.