Our Pool of Players

[eez-eh]

There seems to be a lot of debate as to whether our squad is "young and exciting" or "the worst we've had since the Vogts days", so I took it upon myself to look at the pool of players.

Goalkeepers

Scott Bain
Craig Gordon
David Marshall (don't know why he hasn't been called up in ages)
Zander Clark
Liam Kelly
Jon McLaughlin
Jordan Archer

Full backs

Andy Robertson
Keiran Tierney
Barry Douglas
Craig Forsyth
Stephen Kingsley
Stephen O'Donnell
Liam Palmer
Phil Bardsley (likely not interested)

Centre backs

David Bates
Stuart Findlay
Scott McKenna
John Souttar
Charlie Mulgrew
Jack Hendry
Michael Devlin
Liam Cooper (unsure if he's interested)
Christophe Berra
Grant Hanley
Danny Fox
Murray Wallace
Liam Lindsay

Midfielders

Stuart Armstrong
John McGinn
John Fleck
Callum McGregor
Scott McTominay
Tom Cairney (doubts over whether he can be arsed)
Barry Bannan
Kevin McDonald
Ryan Jack
Graeme Shinnie
Ryan Christie
Kenny McLean
James Morrison
Ryan Gauld
Jay Fulton
Graham Dorrans

Wingers/Attackers

Ryan Fraser (constantly pulls out of squads)
Matt Ritchie (unsure if he's "available"?)
Robert Snodgrass (likewise, don't know if he's "available")
Matt Phillips
James Forrest
Ollie Burke
Lewis Morgan
Johnny Russell
Steven Naismith
Jamie Murphy
Barrie McKay
Ikechi Anya (don't know if he's even playing at club level these days)
Gary Mackay-Steven

Strikers

Leigh Griffiths
Oliver McBurnie
Jordan Rhodes
Steven Fletcher
Greg Stewart
Tony Watt
Mark McNulty
Chris Martin

I've admittedly included some players who most would probably think aren't good enough or whose Scotland days are over,and I'll no doubt have missed some too, but just trying to get a wide look at what's available. This isn't meant to be a debate over who should or shouldn't be playing (although it will probably descend into that) but more just debating whether we're really that shit or not.

Looking at it, we're starting to look a bit light in goals, although I still think Marshall would be the best option for now until someone else really breaks through, but he doesn't seem to be included in squads these days. Right-back is worrying (it probably wouldn't be as bad if Bardsley was available but that looks unlikely) and we seem to have a lot of young, "promising" centre-backs but none of them have much experience (and it showed on Thursday). Left-back is fine obvs.

There's a lot of options in central midfield, with a lot of sound, technical players there but there's a distinct lack of a solid holding midfielder who can give the defence a bit of protection. Our options in front of the midfield and out wide seem to depend heavily on whether Fraser can be arsed and what sort of form Forrest is in. I've never been entirely convinced by Snodgrass and Ritchie for the national team but looking at the current squad it'd be nice to have the option of them available, but I'm not sure if either of them are interested these days.

Up front is pretty grim especially with Griffiths out. Fletcher looks like the best bet at the moment which I'm sure none of us would have said before the Albania and Israel games.

I think when everyone is available and we don't have shitebags pulling out left, right and centre it isn't awful (I had a look at the Ireland squad earlier and it really didn't look any better, yet they continually outperform us). The problem is with the amount of call-offs we have, which I think brings it dangerously close to the Vogts levels of shitness.

Discuss.

[Cptn Hooch]

I don't think the pool of players is as bad as some people are making out it's more of an experience issue. That problem stems from the refusal to blood new talent earlier. This has left us with an ageing squad and no experience coming through. England tend to have a lot of fresh young talent in and around the squad like Foden and Hudson Odoi...neither of whom would be classed as first team regulars for their clubs. We on the other hand stuck with ageing players like Scott Brown (even bringing him out of retirement), Craig Gordon, Charlie Mulgrew, Steven Fletcher....I could go on. We haven't qualified for a major tournament since 98...surely after all of the failed campaigns you would try younger players (even if it is a gamble) as the "experienced" players weren't doing it. Players like Fleck, Bain, Kelly, O'Donnell, McKenna, Bates could have been brought in earlier and played alongside the "experienced" guys allowing us to build the current crop into an experienced squad. The lack of experience is all too evident from the guys like Bates, McKenna, McBurnie etc. This might also have stopped us losing players like Arfield to Canada who were willing to take a punt on him and he ran the show when we played them. Christ...look how long we all shouted for Griffiths to be involved before Strachan took a punt on him and he almost helped us turn the qualifying campaign around.

 

 

PS. You missed Craig Halkett

[Craig McCulloch Burley]

2 hours ago, eez-eh said:

There seems to be a lot of debate as to whether our squad is "young and exciting" or "the worst we've had since the Vogts days", so I took it upon myself to look at the pool of players.

Goalkeepers

Scott Bain
Craig Gordon
David Marshall (don't know why he hasn't been called up in ages)
Zander Clark
Liam Kelly
Jon McLaughlin
Jordan Archer

Full backs

Andy Robertson
Keiran Tierney
Barry Douglas
Craig Forsyth
Stephen Kingsley
Stephen O'Donnell
Liam Palmer
Phil Bardsley (likely not interested)

Centre backs

David Bates
Stuart Findlay
Scott McKenna
John Souttar
Charlie Mulgrew
Jack Hendry
Michael Devlin
Liam Cooper (unsure if he's interested)
Christophe Berra
Grant Hanley
Danny Fox
Murray Wallace
Liam Lindsay

Midfielders

Stuart Armstrong
John McGinn
John Fleck
Callum McGregor
Scott McTominay
Tom Cairney (doubts over whether he can be arsed)
Barry Bannan
Kevin McDonald
Ryan Jack
Graeme Shinnie
Ryan Christie
Kenny McLean
James Morrison
Ryan Gauld
Jay Fulton
Graham Dorrans

Wingers/Attackers

Ryan Fraser (constantly pulls out of squads)
Matt Ritchie (unsure if he's "available"?)
Robert Snodgrass (likewise, don't know if he's "available")
Matt Phillips
James Forrest
Ollie Burke
Lewis Morgan
Johnny Russell
Steven Naismith
Jamie Murphy
Barrie McKay
Ikechi Anya (don't know if he's even playing at club level these days)
Gary Mackay-Steven

Strikers

Leigh Griffiths
Oliver McBurnie
Jordan Rhodes
Steven Fletcher
Greg Stewart
Tony Watt
Mark McNulty
Chris Martin

I've admittedly included some players who most would probably think aren't good enough or whose Scotland days are over,and I'll no doubt have missed some too, but just trying to get a wide look at what's available. This isn't meant to be a debate over who should or shouldn't be playing (although it will probably descend into that) but more just debating whether we're really that shit or not.

Looking at it, we're starting to look a bit light in goals, although I still think Marshall would be the best option for now until someone else really breaks through, but he doesn't seem to be included in squads these days. Right-back is worrying (it probably wouldn't be as bad if Bardsley was available but that looks unlikely) and we seem to have a lot of young, "promising" centre-backs but none of them have much experience (and it showed on Thursday). Left-back is fine obvs.

There's a lot of options in central midfield, with a lot of sound, technical players there but there's a distinct lack of a solid holding midfielder who can give the defence a bit of protection. Our options in front of the midfield and out wide seem to depend heavily on whether Fraser can be arsed and what sort of form Forrest is in. I've never been entirely convinced by Snodgrass and Ritchie for the national team but looking at the current squad it'd be nice to have the option of them available, but I'm not sure if either of them are interested these days.

Up front is pretty grim especially with Griffiths out. Fletcher looks like the best bet at the moment which I'm sure none of us would have said before the Albania and Israel games.

I think when everyone is available and we don't have shitebags pulling out left, right and centre it isn't awful (I had a look at the Ireland squad earlier and it really didn't look any better, yet they continually outperform us). The problem is with the amount of call-offs we have, which I think brings it dangerously close to the Vogts levels of shitness.

Discuss.

What about Byer?

[Dunning1874]

By way of comparison, here are the players who were capped, with the number they won, across the 10 games of McLeish’s first spell in charge. Realise as you’re going for the full pool now whereas this is just those who played it doesn’t entirely compare like for like but anyway.

Goalkeepers

Craig Gordon - 10
Allan McGregor - 1

Defenders

Stephen McManus - 10
David Weir - 9
Graham Alexander - 6
Alan Hutton - 6
Gary Naysmith - 6 
Gary Caldwell - 2 (think he was actually in midfield for those caps though)
Jay McEveley - 2
Christian Dailly - 2
Graeme Murty - 1
Russell Anderson - 1

Midfielders

Barry Ferguson - 8
Scott Brown - 7 
Darren Fletcher - 7
Paul Hartley - 6
Stephen Pearson - 4
Charlie Adam - 2
Barry Robson - 1

Wingers/Centre forwards

Kris Boyd - 8
Lee McCulloch - 7
Shaun Maloney - 7
Kenny Miller - 6
James McFadden - 6
Garry O'Connor - 6
Gary Teale - 5
Craig Beattie - 5
Steven Naismith - 1

Even though Brown & Hartley were IIRC used on the right as much they were in the middle, the really striking thing is the difference in first choice holding midfield options, Any one of 2007 Fletcher, Brown, Ferguson and Hartley would make a massive improvement to our current midfield, and I say that as someone who routinely argues against people insisting we had clearly better squads in the 00s and was a massive Ferguson critic at the time too. Someone with that level of positional discipline sitting behind Armstrong and McGregor would make us considerably less of a shapeless, disorganised rabble, for all that a competent manager might manage to do so with the personnel we have anyway.

Overall though there are areas where we were obviously better off in 2007 - Gordon, Hutton, Weir, Fletcher and Miller of that time would all be starters now with a case to be made for others - but a similar lack of depth existed. Resorting to McNulty in the absence of Naismith and Fletcher has been widely viewed as a pretty tragic state of affairs but not any more so than Craig Beattie, as bad as he was on Thursday Shinnie is comfortably superior to McEveley, I’m a card carrying Barry Bannan hater but he’s certainly not any worse than Charlie fucking Adam was in 2007. A player like Stephen Pearson would be much further away from a cap now than he was then.

That’s also just the McLeish picks - when Smith was in charge at the start of that campaign we had Steven Caldwell and Scott Severin getting caps, neither of whom would get near a B squad now.

We had more players with big game experience then with a core who’d featured in sides who’d made it beyond the group stages in the Champions League. They therefore had some experience of success in tight group stages with little margin for error which is something we by and large lack now and is obviously great experience for players to have which should prepare them for the cut throat nature of an international qualifying campaign - shedding the attitude shamelessly promoted by recent managers that it’s like a full club season where dropping points in your first couple of games can be easily overcome would be very welcome - but that experience doesn’t automatically equate to being a better player.

Stephen McManus playing in tight Champions League last 16 ties after taking part in excellent group stage campaigns was obviously great experience to have, but the fact that he had it while players like McKenna, Souttar and Bates have got no further in Europe than Europa League qualifiers doesn’t mean he was actually a better defender than any of them are.

While we can look at old squads and always see an area where we were indisputably better off, it tends to be much of a muchness and we should focus on getting the best out of the players we do have at our disposal; which in our current predicament means appointing a proper manager as soon as possible.

[Guest DAVIDB69]

A decade ago we had a lot more players , playing at a decent level we just don’t have enough at that level now

[Paco]

Replicating the formation used in Kazakhstan, and with varying reasons for unavailability, the match day squad could’ve looked something like this:

McGregor
Tierney Cooper Mulgrew Robertson
Cairney McArthur Christie
Fraser Fletcher Phillips

Bench: Gordon, Marshall, Bardsley, Hanley, Douglas, Kingsley, McDonald, Ritchie, Paterson, Snodgrass, Griffiths

Can anyone really say that squad is any worse?

Player availability seems to be the issue for me, rather than player quality. Many of our better players pull out injured, retire early, make themselves unavailable or quite simply just can’t be arsed. There surely can’t be many international teams with a squad that looks just as good, even arguably better, just sitting at home.

[craigkillie]

On 24/03/2019 at 06:56, MixuFixit said:

This is so ingrained in how the national team is managed I worry young players are resigned to not getting a crack other than filling the next pair of dead men's shoes.

The starting XI against Kazakhstan was the youngest Scotland team in 40 years. The average age was under 25 and the oldest player on the park was 27 year-old James Forrest.

It'll be even younger once we finally call up Jacob Brown.

[Scary Bear]

You saw against Albania away that we have a decent first XI. However, beyond that it’s a car crash of a squad.

Goalkeeper was a strong position with McGregor but now we’re waiting for someone to show up as good enough.

Right back - no strong claims

Left back - usually sorted, unless they both pull out.

Centre defence - dodgy

Midfield - strongest area but you wouldn’t know it looking at that Kazakhstan performance.

Forwards - Fletcher is the only one available who has shown any sort of talent at international level.

[Dunning1874]

1 hour ago, DAVIDB69 said:

A decade ago we had a lot more players , playing at a decent level we just don’t have enough at that level now

In this international window a decade ago (0-3 v Netherlands & 2-1 v Iceland) we named the following squad:

Goalkeepers

Gordon (Sunderland), McGregor (Rangers), Marshall (Norwich)

Defenders

Alexander (Burnley), Barr (Falkirk), Berra (Wolves), Broadfoot (Rangers), Caldwell (Celtic), Hutton (Tottenham), McAllister (Bristol City), McManus (Celtic), Naysmith (Sheffield United), Weir (Rangers)

Midfielders

Brown (Celtic), Commons (Derby), Ferguson (Rangers), Fletcher (Manchester United), Hartley (Celtic), Morrison (West Brom), Rae (Cardiff), Teale (Derby)

Strikers

Clarkson (Motherwell), Fletcher (Hibernian), Iwelumo (Wolves), McCormack (Cardiff), Miller (Rangers)

We later added Steven Whittaker (Rangers) due to call offs.

If only we still had players the calibre of Darren Barr and Jamie McAllister available.

[Cptn Hooch]

11 hours ago, DAVIDB69 said:

A decade ago we had a lot more players , playing at a decent level we just don’t have enough at that level now

I don't think we did....granted some players playing champions league but that was before the major money made the CL a rich boys game. Dunning's post above shows the teams that squad played for and I don't think there's many more "top" teams than our current squad. A lot of the current squad's failing come down to lack of experience and, I'll stress again, that comes from the manager refusing to bring through young talent.

[Killiefan]

Northern Ireland ended up with an attacking force of MgGinniss , Lafferty and  Jones ffs, amazing what a decent manager can do.

[pandarilla]

I don't think we did....granted some players playing champions league but that was before the major money made the CL a rich boys game. Dunning's post above shows the teams that squad played for and I don't think there's many more "top" teams than our current squad. A lot of the current squad's failing come down to lack of experience and, I'll stress again, that comes from the manager refusing to bring through young talent.

The champions league has literally always been a rich boys game. It was born that way.

Comparing pools of players I'd agree that there's not a huge difference. As others have said one of the biggest worries is the number of players making themselves unavailable. It suggests they see McLeish as a failure, and don't want to be associated.

Building a positive squad environment is crucial, and I don't think big eck can do it anymore.

[morrison1982]

7 hours ago, pandarilla said:

The champions league has literally always been a rich boys game. It was born that way.

Comparing pools of players I'd agree that there's not a huge difference. As others have said one of the biggest worries is the number of players making themselves unavailable. It suggests they see McLeish as a failure, and don't want to be associated.

Building a positive squad environment is crucial, and I don't think big eck can do it anymore.

The other aspect of this is that the SFA get pushed around far too easily by the clubs. Allowing two players to be taken out of the team for a competitive game because it happened to be played on an artificial surface is absurd.

Arguing the toss about whether this pool of players is a bit better or a bit worse than 10 years ago misses the point that we are not getting enough of them on the pitch often enough. With the consequence that we are not punching our weight.

Compare this with Northern Ireland, who apart from at centre back (Evans / Cathcart) have a weaker pool of players. When Kyle Lafferty messed them around earlier this season, pulling out due to an imaginary injury, NI banned him from playing in the next Rangers game (Accies away, I think). He was back playing in this window.

It is important to have a manager who commands respect from the players, but there is also an obligation on the SFA and the manager to stand up for themselves. If you give the clubs an inch they'll take a mile. We do have good players, but we don't have enough good players that we can afford our better ones to be missing.