A postive case for the union

[doulikefish]

Da's can sell avon

With things heating up with regards to a second independence referendum I call upon P&B’s more recent resident Unionists - Malky and Glenanover - to make a positive case for the Union on this thread. Give me reasons why staying in the UK is the right thing to do for Scotland.

Over to you.

[hearthammer]

11 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

With things heating up with regards to a second independence referendum I call upon P&B’s more recent resident Unionists - Malky and Glenanover - to make a positive case for the Union on this thread. Give me reasons why staying in the UK is the right thing to do for Scotland.

Over to you.

You forgot wee Kincy.     Is the plural zoomeri ??

[hearthammer]

 

[hearthammer]

Just now, MixuFixit said:

Zoomerati

Cheers.  I wanted to address the zoomerati by their proper collective noun.

[jamamafegan]

@Glenanover
@Malky3

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Still waiting.

Like you'll wait for a response on the OBFA.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Cheers.  I wanted to address the zoomerati by their proper collective noun.

How about the Unionist Clown Collective?

[jamamafegan]

@Glenanover
[mention=77734]Malky3[/mention]

@Malky3
@Glenanover
@Mastermind

Let’s be having you.

[Malky3]

28 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

@Malky3
@Glenanover
@Mastermind

Let’s be having you.

Ok. I could go on for hours but ill start with these and see where it goes.... 

Most successful political union in the world

A long serving partnership that sees our economies, cultures and our jobs absolutely interlinked

A political union that has seen Scottish banking through a mojor financial crash and the Scottish government through a period of low North Sea oil tax returns. 

Its a union that sees Scotland getting a generous settlement year on year through the Barnett Formula. This allows us a share of the huge revenues recieved in taxation from London, the South East and The East of England where they are in surplus. Currently £13Bn per annum. 

England is the biggest consumer of Scottish products. 

We share vital trade links worldwide, use UK embassies and diplomats.

Enjoy extensive trade and cultural links with the Commonwealth.

Are a major part of the worlds fifth largest economy. 

A respected global power. 

And we share in the use of one of the most popular and respected trading currencies in the world. 

The UK is also still seen as one of the worlds greatest democracies. 

And globally one of the safest economies to invest in. 

 

[Gordon EF]

34 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

The UK is also still seen as one of the worlds greatest democracies.

Belter

[renton]

18 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Ok. I could go on for hours but ill start with these and see where it goes.... 

Most successful political union in the world

This is subjective at best. On what metrics is it successful? Time in being? Stability over that time? On the first count, it predates most and has outlived a few, on the second count it did lose a significant percentage of it's population and territory when Ireland left in 1922, and then got into a 30 year asymmetric conflict with residents of the rump part of that island so maybe not so hot on that front? 

Certainly, the USA or the Federal state of Germany might disagree.

A long serving partnership that sees our economies, cultures and our jobs absolutely interlinked

Again, this is woolly. You could say the same about the EU. A far looser confederation than the incorporating Union of Britain. Indeed, any free trade across borders has the effect of synchronising economies and culture. There is nothing special about the UK in that regard.

A political union that has seen Scottish banking through a mojor financial crash and the Scottish government through a period of low North Sea oil tax returns. 

This is more specific, but still not very convincing. In the first instance we can declare that nations were only responsible for the savings and transactions associated with their territories. That's why the UK bailed out Icelandic and Irish banks - not out of the goodness of their hearts but to protect the savings of UK investors. Likewise the biggest bailout of RBS was from the US Federal reserve, as it was largely US investors who were exposed. As such the size of RBS and it's exposure relative to Scotland is a reasonably pointless diversion. We'd have balied out the retail parts we needed to and any exposed investments on our side. 

The oil thing is totally irrelevant unless you can point to specific actions and reliefs taken by the UK government during periods of low oil revenue. Of course, we have the case that instead of prudently setting aside the oil money as Norway did, the greater sum of it was spunked up against a wall in the 1980s in order to cover de-industrialisation and the Big Bang in the City in 1986. Thus neatly working your second point back to your first: We wasted a tonne of oil revenue specifically to allow the banks to nearly bring down the whole economy 20 years later.

The salient point here is that the actions taking by the UK government, to be of any use to your argument would have to constitute a best possible outcome, one that would have been impossible for Scotland to achieve by itself. To indulge in some counter factual history. We can imagine an independent Scotland in the 1970s carefully marshalling it's oil money into an oil fund like Norway, creating a near permanent buttress against any and all economic storms. meanwhile, the deregulation may or may not happen in London, but RBS does not become one of the main players, becoming a more mid tiered retail and investment bank only, governed on Scottish turf at least, by far more stringent regulation.

Indeed, the only point you've made here is that involvement in the UK laid waste to Scottish natural and corporate assets through it's own short term outlook.

Its a union that sees Scotland getting a generous settlement year on year through the Barnett Formula. This allows us a share of the huge revenues recieved in taxation from London, the South East and The East of England where they are in surplus. Currently £13Bn per annum. 

An argument based on the notion that the centre consumes all that is good and rents back a little bit of it to the periphery. This is not exactly a sterling argument for the Union, that it strips bare other parts of itself to service London and the South East.

That's besides the argument that GERS is and only ever can be an estimate of Scotland in Union, not Scotland as an independent nation.

England is the biggest consumer of Scottish products. 

That's a question of geography. Most nations tend to consume products proportional to their distance, nothing to do with our political Union.

We share vital trade links worldwide, use UK embassies and diplomats.

We share vital trade links with lots of nations. Not sure why UK diplomats would be a positive case for a political Union either.

Enjoy extensive trade and cultural links with the Commonwealth.

See above.

Are a major part of the worlds fifth largest economy. 

Largely irrelevant. The size of the economy matters only relative to the lived experience of those who are part of it. Scotland would be far lower down the scales in terms of the size of economy, but that says little about how the 5.4 milion experience it.

And by the way, it's sixth - soon to be seventh.

A respected global power. 

Subjective again. Respected by whom? 

And we share in the use of one of the most popular and respected trading currencies in the world. 

And could easily use the dollar or the Euro if we were independent. Both respected currencies.

The UK is also still seen as one of the worlds greatest democracies. 

Currently tearing itself apart over the result of a referendum 3 years ago, where the legislature is incapable of coming to a decision and the executive is abusing some daft old rules that no one ever bothered to codify in order to ram road through a policy that literally no one has ever voted for. An executive, by the way, who has no personal mandate with the country at large. 

Give me a Banana republic any day.

And globally one of the safest economies to invest in. 

Same could be said of any Northern European nation.

 

 

[AUFC90]

So the positive case for the union is....we spent all your oil money,went bust, borrowed huge sums of money but don't leave to try and fix it. Stay, it will be alright eventually.

 

Cool [emoji106]

 

 

[conboyhibs]

10 minutes ago, renton said:

 

Excellently put. I often try and take a step back and try and see what legitimate arguments there are for remaining as part of the UK. The very few with a degree of credibility have been debunked by the absolutely shambolic nature in which the UK has dealt with Brexit over the last 3 years.

In Malky3's post he often refers to the 'respect' the UK has, both as an economic and political union.. surely even the most devout unionist can recognise that this respect has been irreparably damaged after the last few years? It's going to be very difficult to restore some of the relationship's with some of our nearest neighbours following Brexit due to the fact that there will be a lasting view that the way the UK has handled itself, especially this year, has been nothing short of scandalous. I cannot see a Scottish Government conducting themselves in a remotely similar manner following independence. 

Also, the notion that by becoming independent, it would somehow mean that the trading relationship between Scotland and rUK would shrink is absolute nonsense. Who on earth would that be in the interests of? 

[Miguel Sanchez]

"A respected global power"

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

"A respected global power"

The UK is now seen as a bigger laughing stock than trump’s america. I’ve never referred to myself as British but now actively find myself correcting Americans over here who say that. Absolute riddy being ‘British’.

[Ira Gaines]

To be fair, the reason we're seen as a bigger laughing stock than the US is because the UK is pretty much a diddy nation. The US will remain a powerful nation no matter who's in charge, and therefore Trump is seen as a lot more dangerous.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

To be fair, the reason we're seen as a bigger laughing stock than the US is because the UK is pretty much a diddy nation. The US will remain a powerful nation no matter who's in charge, and therefore Trump is seen as a lot more dangerous.

Yes but in the context of Donald Trump actually being elected as president its quite a feat that the UK has somehow managed to out ‘howthefuckdidthathappen?’ Even that scenario.

[Mark Connolly]

That's quite the helping of telt that renton dished out.

[MuckleMoo]

 

[Glenanover]

23 hours ago, Malky3 said:

Ok. I could go on for hours but ill start with these and see where it goes.... 

Most successful political union in the world

A long serving partnership that sees our economies, cultures and our jobs absolutely interlinked

A political union that has seen Scottish banking through a mojor financial crash and the Scottish government through a period of low North Sea oil tax returns. 

Its a union that sees Scotland getting a generous settlement year on year through the Barnett Formula. This allows us a share of the huge revenues recieved in taxation from London, the South East and The East of England where they are in surplus. Currently £13Bn per annum. 

England is the biggest consumer of Scottish products. 

We share vital trade links worldwide, use UK embassies and diplomats.

Enjoy extensive trade and cultural links with the Commonwealth.

Are a major part of the worlds fifth largest economy. 

A respected global power. 

And we share in the use of one of the most popular and respected trading currencies in the world. 

The UK is also still seen as one of the worlds greatest democracies. 

And globally one of the safest economies to invest in. 

 

Great post.