Billy Gilmour

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I'm struggling to picture that scene tbh, nor was I suggesting that Gilmour started the game, but getting them involved with the senior squad at 18 when they're showing a lot of promise can't be a bad thing. I genuinely couldn't care less about how far the 21's progress in a tournament, it really doesn't have relevance to anything.

I'd argue we're desperate for just about anyone with a bit of quality, which Gilmour appears to have. I'm not clamouring or demanding that he is included, if he's left out I'm fine with it, I just think giving him experience of it at 18/19 might be helpful.

I can picture the scene given our performances in the group so far.  San Marino will be difficult to break down, and the fans will get restless, they'll be wanting to see goals.

We need to have the U21's performing well. It's no co-incidence that the last time the U21's qualified for anything, was the time the full team qualified for anything (1996/1998).  Nothing since.  The U21's aren't just about Gilmour, there are good players in that team that are progressing, take two or three out (when we don't really need to) and they begin struggling in the group which doesn't help the rest.  If we want to nurture players for the full team, we need to look after the U21's (and U19's for that matter).

As I said, it's immaterial anyway, unless there's  a mass withdrawal of midfielders, Gilmour will play against Lithuania and Czech Republic in the U21's, hopefully helping towards two wins.

[Gordopolis]

1 hour ago, BingMcCrosby said:

I think being a first team regular at Chelsea standard is a bit of a high bar for our squad. 

Apart from Mctominay I couldnt see any of our midfielders being given a sniff of a chance at Chelsea.

 

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Picture the scene, we're struggling to break down a determined San Marino side, we go in maybe 1-0 ahead at the break not playing well, booos ringing out in the sparse crowd, and Gilmour anonymous.   I'd rather see him drive the U21's onto a home win over Lithuania and take something in the Czech Republic, topping the group.

I just don't understand the clamour. He's only 18 and not a first team player.  We're not that desperate for midfielders, and he has plenty time.

I think the answer lies between these two posts. He probably needs a few more months of being in or around the Chelsea top team, even just getting on the bench more often than not and probably another few sub runouts in the EPL and then he's proven enough to be 'risked' in the current Scotland squad by way of obvious potential + enough of an indicator that he is going to be more than just potential. Just now is probably a fraction too soon and waiting until he's a first pick for Chelsea just seems arrogant.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Gordopolis

[craigkillie]

 

 

Hmm, I'm not sure that's really how we need to play it. This qualification group is gone for us - we won't qualify from it. So focus is on the NL and forward from that. Guys like Snodgrass won't be around much longer, certainly not beyond 2020, why not put Gilmour into this squad and get him his first cap against San Marino?

I'd have been much more experimental with this squad if I was Clarke, but I concede that it's me sitting in a office job and him sitting in the Scotland dugout, but I think Gilmour at least could have been included here. I'd have had Liam Lindsay or Declan Gallagher in too (as well as Stuart Findlay from the start). We'll need all these guys in a couple of years, why not get a head start on integrating them now when we're playing for virtually f**k all.

 

Snodgrass might not be around past 2020, but will almost certainly be around in 2020, which is when our important games are. He's also one of only two outfielders in their 30s who are in this squad, the other being Mulgrew.

 

He doesn't even play the same position as Gilmour so it's a weird comparison. Kenny McLean might be your better equivalent.

 

Declan Gallagher is 28 and will never be up to the standard. Grant Hanley is pilloried, but he's younger, already has about 30 caps, and has spent his entire career at a higher level. Liam Lindsay is a sub for a Stoke team that are bottom of the Championship.

 

The pool of centre-backs who are in and around the squad, Mulgrew aside, are already quite young. Findlay, McKenna, Bates, Hendry and Souttar have already featured regularly in squads and are all 24 or under.

 

[54_and_counting]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Picture the scene, we're struggling to break down a determined San Marino side, we go in maybe 1-0 ahead at the break not playing well, booos ringing out in the sparse crowd, and Gilmour anonymous.   I'd rather see him drive the U21's onto a home win over Lithuania and take something in the Czech Republic, topping the group.

I just don't understand the clamour. He's only 18 and not a first team player.  We're not that desperate for midfielders, and he has plenty time.

Surely if scotland are struggling against the likes of san marino then its great experience for a youngster, when they are expected to dominate and win, it gets them used to having to step up and be the dominant side instead of going into games against better teams and setting up to have less of the ball, 

Starring for the u21's is all well and good, but it doesn't replicate the full squad in terms of how the team is setup against opposition

If scotland cannot give an 18yo Chelsea player and hot prospect some game time against san marino then the games a bogey

[Burnie_man]

39 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Surely if scotland are struggling against the likes of san marino then its great experience for a youngster, when they are expected to dominate and win, it gets them used to having to step up and be the dominant side instead of going into games against better teams and setting up to have less of the ball, 

Starring for the u21's is all well and good, but it doesn't replicate the full squad in terms of how the team is setup against opposition

If scotland cannot give an 18yo Chelsea player and hot prospect some game time against san marino then the games a bogey

You're right, he's a prospect and at the moment that is all he is.  Ryan Gauld was also a hot prospect, and many others before him.  This isn't exactly the first time we've been down this road, and how many of those hot prospects have made it and then driven us onwards to a finals?

Let's trust the coaching staff that they know what they're doing. 

[54_and_counting]

48 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You're right, he's a prospect and at the moment that is all he is.  Ryan Gauld was also a hot prospect, and many others before him.  This isn't exactly the first time we've been down this road, and how many of those hot prospects have made it and then driven us onwards to a finals?

Let's trust the coaching staff that they know what they're doing. 

Not many because they dont get a proper chance until their late 20's, given scotlands history, had there been a prominent left back 5 years ago then andy robertson would likely have a couple of caps 

[craigkillie]

25 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Not many because they dont get a proper chance until their late 20's, given scotlands history, had there been a prominent left back 5 years ago then andy robertson would likely have a couple of caps 

There's a prominent left-back right now, and 22 year-old Kieran Tierney still has 12 caps despite pulling out of pretty much every squad for about a year.

[54_and_counting]

8 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

There's a prominent left-back right now, and 22 year-old Kieran Tierney still has 12 caps despite pulling out of pretty much every squad for about a year.

Do you think if there was a 30yo spl experienced left back, back in 2014, strachan would still have played robertson? 

[craigkillie]

Lee Wallace was around at that point. Whittaker and Forsyth did get picked ahead of Robertson sometimes, but he still amassed a decent number of caps.

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, 54_and_counting said:

Do you think if there was a 30yo spl experienced left back, back in 2014, strachan would still have played robertson? 

He made his debut when he was 20, not 18, and yes I think he would still have got his chance.  Will Gilmour get his first cap by 20, I suspect he will.

[Old Bing]

4 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

You're right, he's a prospect and at the moment that is all he is.  Ryan Gauld was also a hot prospect, and many others before him.  This isn't exactly the first time we've been down this road, and how many of those hot prospects have made it and then driven us onwards to a finals?

Let's trust the coaching staff that they know what they're doing. 

Ryan Gauld is in no way a decent comparison. What other hot prospects?

You think this isn't the first time we have been down this road, when was the last time we had a teenager playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world (money wise at least). Getting rave reviews every time he steps on the pitch?

I can't think of one example.

You must be going back to the mullet days to think of someone.

This is a unique situation, the guy is a special talent. He should be in as soon as possible.

[Gordopolis]

He made his debut when he was 20, not 18, and yes I think he would still have got his chance.  Will Gilmour get his first cap by 20, I suspect he will.

Pretty sure Robbo got his first cap as a teenager.It was that away game that the Daily Record tried to stream and totally fucked up.

 

ETA: yeah just checked - away to Poland. We won 1-0 and Robbo played a few days before turning 20.

 

I remember at the time being a bit bemused by the self-congratulatory media chat about us 'capping a teenager' as if we were the first nation to do so. To me it really just highlighted how few teenage prospects we have had in the last few decades.

 

 

[54_and_counting]

12 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

Pretty sure Robbo got his first cap as a teenager.It was that away game that the Daily Record tried to stream and totally fucked up.

 

ETA: yeah just checked - away to Poland. We won 1-0 and Robbo played a few days before turning 20.

 

I remember at the time being a bit bemused by the self-congratulatory media chat about us 'capping a teenager' as if we were the first nation to do so. To me it really just highlighted how few teenage prospects we have had in the last few decades.

 

 

Scotland probably had more, but they were humped about while consistant failures like brown, fletcher etc all continued to play and fail

And to clarify, im not talking about world class, messi tyoe hot prospects, im talking about guys that with a good bit of experience could have possibly got scotland into better positions than they have been and look likely to be in within the forseeable future

Callum McGregor is a prime example, he spent 3 years after the u21's doing f**k all international wise while playing over 30 games a season for celtic, he's now 26 and only has 15 caps

James Mccarthy is 28, was capped for the full ireland team before he finished his u21's stint, and is now 28 with over 40 caps

Stuart armstrong is another scotland neglected to mix into the fold, he spent 3 years in the wilderness International wise after his u21 career, now he's expected to perform like a seasoned pro at that level

[craigkillie]

Callum McGregor wasn't a first choice player at Celtic until early 2017. He made his debut for Scotland the same year. Prior to that he was in and out of the team and Rodgers tended not to trust him in the big European games. Meanwhile, the Scotland side featuring the "consistent failures like Brown, Fletcher etc" were on a six match unbeaten run which took us to the brink of qualifying.

Also, Brown made his Scotland debut at 20 and had 38 caps when he was at the age of 28. Fletcher made his debut at 19 and had 61 caps when he was at the age of 28. Obviously getting them capped early and often didn't help since you described them as "consistent failures".

Edited October 5, 2019 by craigkillie

[54_and_counting]

6 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Callum McGregor wasn't a first choice player at Celtic until early 2017. He made his debut for Scotland the same year. Prior to that he was in and out of the team and Rodgers tended not to trust him in the big European games. Meanwhile, the Scotland side featuring the "consistent failures like Brown, Fletcher etc" were on a six match unbeaten run which took us to the brink of qualifying.

McGregor played 11 european games for celtic in the 14-15 season, thats worthy of at least a shot at the end of qualifying campaigns when scotland were inevitably out of the running

[Gordopolis]

Callum McGregor wasn't a first choice player at Celtic until early 2017. He made his debut for Scotland the same year. Prior to that he was in and out of the team and Rodgers tended not to trust him in the big European games. Meanwhile, the Scotland side featuring the "consistent failures like Brown, Fletcher etc" were on a six match unbeaten run which took us to the brink of qualifying.
Also, Brown made his Scotland debut at 20 and had 38 caps when he was at the age of 28. Fletcher made his debut at 19 and had 61 caps when he was at the age of 28. Obviously getting them capped early and often didn't help since you described them as "consistent failures".

I hear what you're saying Craig, but Brown is the perfect example of our underutilization of players. 38 caps at the age of 28? Pathetic.

[craigkillie]

16 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

McGregor played 11 european games for celtic in the 14-15 season, thats worthy of at least a shot at the end of qualifying campaigns when scotland were inevitably out of the running

Except that in the next two qualifying campaigns (Euro 2016 and WC 2018), we weren't "inevitably out of the running" at the end of the campaigns, were we? The Euro 2016 one went to the final double header when we could only draw 2-2 with Poland at Hampden, and the WC 2018 one went to the last game out in Slovenia. McGregor made his debut in the next match after that Slovenia one.

And 6 of those 11 European games came in their failed Champions League qualifying campaign, when they managed to get knocked out of the same competition twice. He only started 8 league games that season.

Edited October 5, 2019 by craigkillie

[craigkillie]

3 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

15 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Callum McGregor wasn't a first choice player at Celtic until early 2017. He made his debut for Scotland the same year. Prior to that he was in and out of the team and Rodgers tended not to trust him in the big European games. Meanwhile, the Scotland side featuring the "consistent failures like Brown, Fletcher etc" were on a six match unbeaten run which took us to the brink of qualifying.
Also, Brown made his Scotland debut at 20 and had 38 caps when he was at the age of 28. Fletcher made his debut at 19 and had 61 caps when he was at the age of 28. Obviously getting them capped early and often didn't help since you described them as "consistent failures".

I hear what you're saying Craig, but Brown is the perfect example of our underutilization of players. 38 caps at the age of 28? Pathetic.

He had a lot of injuries in his mid 20s - he only started roughly half of Celtic's league games in the four seasons from 2009/10 to 2012/13. Remember that the reason he said he retired from playing for Scotland the first time was to try to prolong his club career.

[Falcor Roar]

Starts tonight in the League Cup. 

[craigkillie]

You can see his talent and his football brain, but he is getting swallowed up by this United midfield a bit here.