Billy Gilmour

[Kuro]

19 hours ago, gannonball said:

At lower level. His record against Celtic and any other team of note pretty much puts your opinion to bed.

Like I said there is a reason why a lot of his managers didnt trust him against higher opposition be it for club or Country.

Celtic are not a team of note. His record of chance conversion is top.drawer against anyone.

[Kuro]

7 hours ago, ArabFC said:

Started their last 3 games - couldn't be bothered checking any further!

Armstrong makes a difference every time he comes on for Scotland.

Started four leabue.games this season due.to injuries. He did not start the previous three.

[gannonball]

Had there ever been a guy been put on his arse so many times in one thread with facts/reality and still come back for more than Kuro?

He may be an idiot but a relentless idiot I will give him that.

[troopio]

he is important to the 21s who have started well but IMO he should be on the pathway to the full squad in terms of training with the full squad where possible etc. Irish Teams and Wales fastrack talent in when they see it, even England do as well, i fear we will make the mistake of leaving it too late like we always seem to do.

[Burnie_man]

43 minutes ago, troopio said:

he is important to the 21s who have started well but IMO he should be on the pathway to the full squad in terms of training with the full squad where possible etc. Irish Teams and Wales fastrack talent in when they see it, even England do as well, i fear we will make the mistake of leaving it too late like we always seem to do.

Gilmour was playing yesterday for Chelsea........U19's in the U19 Champions League away to Lille.

When he is involved regularly with the Chelsea first team then that may be the point to look more closely at him in a full team environment, otherwise leave him to get game time (and experience) with the U21's.

[forameus]

1 hour ago, troopio said:

he is important to the 21s who have started well but IMO he should be on the pathway to the full squad in terms of training with the full squad where possible etc. Irish Teams and Wales fastrack talent in when they see it, even England do as well, i fear we will make the mistake of leaving it too late like we always seem to do.

While that's true, training with the full squad happens at the same time as the U21s.  You can't really have both (unless, I guess, both teams were playing at home).  I'm not really sure what just training with the group really does anyway.  He'll be training with proper quality at Chelsea, and it's clear that training with the team hasn't done our first team squad that much good anyway.  Bring him in when he's got a shout of featuring.  Expect he will be.

[Kuro]

On 02/10/2019 at 19:51, gannonball said:

Had there ever been a guy been put on his arse so many times in one thread with facts/reality and still come back for more than Kuro?

He may be an idiot but a relentless idiot I will give him that.

I'm correct. McLean is.not a first choice at Norwich.

[velo army]

1 hour ago, Kuro said:

I'm correct. McLean is.not a first choice at Norwich.

Congrats on your victory, now away and derail another thread with your "insight".

[Bing.McCrosby]

9 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Gilmour was playing yesterday for Chelsea........U19's in the U19 Champions League away to Lille.

When he is involved regularly with the Chelsea first team then that may be the point to look more closely at him in a full team environment, otherwise leave him to get game time (and experience) with the U21's.

I'd agree with all that if we were currently a winning team on a good run.

But were a team with a supposed great midfield, struggling to control any midfield.

[Burnie_man]

11 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

I'd agree with all that if we were currently a winning team on a good run.

But were a team with a supposed great midfield, struggling to control any midfield.

And dropping an unproven 18 year old into the midst of that in the hope he changes it, isn't going to do the player any good if he struggles.

[54_and_counting]

34 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

And dropping an unproven 18 year old into the midst of that in the hope he changes it, isn't going to do the player any good if he struggles.

No but if he is going to be scotlands midfielders in years to come then the early experience will be valuable, 

Or they could just leave him out then throw him in when he's 28 and expect him to mix it with the best 

[No_Problemo]

No but if he is going to be scotlands midfielders in years to come then the early experience will be valuable, 
Or they could just leave him out then throw him in when he's 28 and expect him to mix it with the best 

He’ll be in as soon as he gets a few actual games for Chelsea and is better than our other central midfielders. If he’s playing in the premiership I’m pretty sure he’ll be able to “mix it with the best.”

[Burnie_man]

35 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

No but if he is going to be scotlands midfielders in years to come then the early experience will be valuable, 

Or they could just leave him out then throw him in when he's 28 and expect him to mix it with the best 

Or they could leave him with the U21's to continue his development, give him time to become a first team player with Chelsea every week (which he isn't currently) and then at that point, look to involve him with the full Scotland side.  He has time on his side, and another U21 campaign after this one if needs be.

If and when he is a first team regular at Chelsea, he'll be in. That might  be next year, it might not.

[The Moonster]

24 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Or they could leave him with the U21's to continue his development, give him time to become a first team player with Chelsea every week (which he isn't currently) and then at that point, look to involve him with the full Scotland side.  He has time on his side, and another U21 campaign after this one if needs be.

If and when he is a first team regular at Chelsea, he'll be in. That might  be next year, it might not.

Hmm, I'm not sure that's really how we need to play it. This qualification group is gone for us - we won't qualify from it. So focus is on the NL and forward from that. Guys like Snodgrass won't be around much longer, certainly not beyond 2020, why not put Gilmour into this squad and get him his first cap against San Marino?

I'd have been much more experimental with this squad if I was Clarke, but I concede that it's me sitting in a office job and him sitting in the Scotland dugout, but I think Gilmour at least could have been included here. I'd have had Liam Lindsay or Declan Gallagher in too (as well as Stuart Findlay from the start). We'll need all these guys in a couple of years, why not get a head start on integrating them now when we're playing for virtually f**k all.

[troopio]

our attitude as a nation is poor , we look for problems and never solutions....Wales? Saw Potential in Bale, played him early, England, now seeing potential and they play it, us? we procrastinate and get all high and mighty about "experience" , until that attitude changes we will never improve much....the irony is that Vogts, as maligned as he was, had no fear in putting McFadden and Fletcher in...but hey lets wait till Gilmour has played 10000 games before he is called up

[Gordopolis]

33 minutes ago, troopio said:

our attitude as a nation is poor , we look for problems and never solutions....Wales? Saw Potential in Bale, played him early, England, now seeing potential and they play it, us? we procrastinate and get all high and mighty about "experience" , until that attitude changes we will never improve much....the irony is that Vogts, as maligned as he was, had no fear in putting McFadden and Fletcher in...but hey lets wait till Gilmour has played 10000 games before he is called up

The argument's a wee bit exaggerated (Vogts was hounded for not including McFadden when he was scoring freely for Motherwell) but I agree in principle. No harm in reserving 1-3 spots for obvious potential in every squad. 

I'd have been tempted to leave out Snodgrass, McLaughlin and Russell from this squad and have Gilmour, McCrorie and Johnston in instead. Not starters, but there to get involved in training, and if they mix and train well, to get on vs San Marino to get them on the path to being comfortable and competent at international level. 

Of course, the u21s would suffer for this, but frankly I don't give a shit. They're just a feeder team for the main squad. That's their job.

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Or they could leave him with the U21's to continue his development, give him time to become a first team player with Chelsea every week (which he isn't currently) and then at that point, look to involve him with the full Scotland side.  He has time on his side, and another U21 campaign after this one if needs be.

If and when he is a first team regular at Chelsea, he'll be in. That might  be next year, it might not.

I think being a first team regular at Chelsea standard is a bit of a high bar for our squad. 

Apart from Mctominay I couldnt see any of our midfielders being given a sniff of a chance at Chelsea.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

Hmm, I'm not sure that's really how we need to play it. This qualification group is gone for us - we won't qualify from it. So focus is on the NL and forward from that. Guys like Snodgrass won't be around much longer, certainly not beyond 2020, why not put Gilmour into this squad and get him his first cap against San Marino?

I'd have been much more experimental with this squad if I was Clarke, but I concede that it's me sitting in a office job and him sitting in the Scotland dugout, but I think Gilmour at least could have been included here. I'd have had Liam Lindsay or Declan Gallagher in too (as well as Stuart Findlay from the start). We'll need all these guys in a couple of years, why not get a head start on integrating them now when we're playing for virtually f**k all.

Picture the scene, we're struggling to break down a determined San Marino side, we go in maybe 1-0 ahead at the break not playing well, booos ringing out in the sparse crowd, and Gilmour anonymous.   I'd rather see him drive the U21's onto a home win over Lithuania and take something in the Czech Republic, topping the group.

I just don't understand the clamour. He's only 18 and not a first team player.  We're not that desperate for midfielders, and he has plenty time.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, troopio said:

our attitude as a nation is poor , we look for problems and never solutions....Wales? Saw Potential in Bale, played him early, England, now seeing potential and they play it, us? we procrastinate and get all high and mighty about "experience" , until that attitude changes we will never improve much....the irony is that Vogts, as maligned as he was, had no fear in putting McFadden and Fletcher in...but hey lets wait till Gilmour has played 10000 games before he is called up

McFadden and Fletcher were both first team players at the time. Gilmour isn't, and in a typically Scottish trait, are already heaping pressure on him as the next big thing. Just like Gauld.

It's a pointless argument anyway, he won't be going to Russia or playing against San Marino.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Burnie_man

[The Moonster]

9 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Picture the scene, we're struggling to break down a determined San Marino side, we go in maybe 1-0 ahead at the break not playing well, booos ringing out in the sparse crowd, and Gilmour anonymous.   I'd rather see him drive the U21's onto a home win over Lithuania and take something in the Czech Republic, topping the group.

I just don't understand the clamour. He's only 18 and not a first team player.  We're not that desperate for midfielders, and he has plenty time.

I'm struggling to picture that scene tbh, nor was I suggesting that Gilmour started the game, but getting them involved with the senior squad at 18 when they're showing a lot of promise can't be a bad thing. I genuinely couldn't care less about how far the 21's progress in a tournament, it really doesn't have relevance to anything.

I'd argue we're desperate for just about anyone with a bit of quality, which Gilmour appears to have. I'm not clamouring or demanding that he is included, if he's left out I'm fine with it, I just think giving him experience of it at 18/19 might be helpful.