Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[mizfit]

The policy seems to have evolved quite rapidly in the last week. Just trying to look more proactive than the devolved governments, or blind panic in the face of varying R figures?

All 3 devolved nations are handling the outbreak better, England is heading for a second wave and Since the UK is pushing towards herd immunity and scrapping Furlough, they need to be seen putting measures in to prevent it spiking.

Also if it goes wrong they can blame it on the public.

[vikingTON]

7 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

So you’re argument is that because they didn’t put better protective measures in place earlier we should now ignore the more cautionary approach they are taking now?

Yeah that makes sense!

BTW I doubt if anyone would have suggested in February that we should close the schools, but don’t let that get into the way of your rant.

 

That the SG has clearly and consistently failed to demonstrate an evidence-led response to well, any aspect of the outbreak so far, means that blind faith that their current advice is based on The Science should be untenable. The government is no more likely to choose the best options and restrictions on this side of the outbreak curve than all of its floundering efforts on the opposite side.

The only consistent theme to Phase 1 is that the government still doesn't want that many people to leave the house. Restrictions on public toilets etc. are simply back of a fag packet means to that end rather than an evidence-led decision. It's also one that will be causing major if not discriminatory impacts on those with Crohn's and other chronic diseases for whom regular access to public facilities is a really big deal.

[Todd_is_God]

12 minutes ago, Steven W said:

But breaching 40,000 today (in just three months) is a truly eye watering number. We'll be at 50,000 before too long.

I don't disagree with that, however in normal circumstances it would take just 24 days for 40,000 people to die in the UK.

It's not good that people have died from this at all, however actual daily deaths (and by that i mean based on date of death) amongst the general populace from Covid-19 are now a very small percentage of all cause deaths per day.

I assume the government know this, but they have done a dreadful job of conveying this to the public.

[vikingTON]

9 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

To be fair it's a good question why the two countries of the same size that share an open land border with England, Scotland and Slovakia, have had such disparate experiences.

Slovakia is four hours on good motorways away from the initial hub of transmission in Europe. Lots of them visit northern Italy as a result; it's literally quicker for people living in the capital to go to the Alps for the weekend than visiting their family on the other side of their own country. The idea that Scotland was uniquely burdened by geography in this outbreak is utter nonsense then. It was a completely different set of policies, rather than relative isolation, that explains the two countries' wildly divergent paths.

Fun fact: Slovakia has already raced through to its own Phase 4, with people returning to pubs and restaurants indoors among other amenities and economic life broadly restored eight weeks after lockdown began. 

[pandarilla]

Based on what exactly? Hard surfaces that are regularly cleaned and bleached are a hell of a lot less of a risk than some dingy corner shop with people waltzing in and out all day, or wandering around a supermarket with people pawing the items multiple times per daily visit.
Your blind belief that the government is basing this advice on The Science rather than the back of a fag packet after three full months of contradictory evidence is extraordinary.

It's fairly clear that people need to go out to get food. They don't need to go out to go to the toilet.

I'm someone with severe Crohn's and i know just how vital public toilets are in society. But the lockdown is aimed at restricting the contact between different household - and public toilets aren't something you need to go out to do.

But as always, your grown up levels of interaction add a degree of maturity to the debate.

Which one didn't bother to close schools in February because parents couldn't possibly be asked to look after their sprogs (SG: clearly utter bollocks), gave the green light for an Old Firm game to go ahead eight days prior to a total UK-wide lockdown (SG: idiotic), released hundreds of infected outpatients back into care homes (SG: criminal), failed to secure sufficient PPE for key workers (ibid.) and decided that masks didn't fit Western European cultural norms and is now furiously backtracking on that blunder as well (SG: clownshoes pop sociology at work)? Which one has ended up with a death toll literally one hundred and forty times greater than an equivalent-sized European country like Slovakia as a direct consequence of all of the above failures?
The facts speak for themselves on this one.

Do you genuinely believe you know better than the Scottish government? Are you really that egotistical?

Just to be clear, i agree that mistakes have been made. But if you genuinely think you know better, without relying on hindsight, then that's quite a bold claim.

And as granny said, you're criticising their lack of strict measures then, and now saying things are being too strict. Were you calling for strict lockdown in February? Maybe you were, but i didn't see many folk who were.

So it's got nothing to do with wearing masks at all then, even if you're paranoid enough to think that someone moving briefly within a magical two metre personal space is an act declaring that they 'feel invincible'. 
I think lockdown has got to some people's brains tbh.

There's no doubt that fear has gripped people, and i actually agree that folk are taking things slightly too seriously, especially when looking to ease things now.

But i get the impression that the Scottish public support this slightly more cautious approach.

[vikingTON]

Just in case you want to educate yourself on what a competent country does, instead of trying to deflect blame and take bizarre pride in being one notch above Boris Johnson's government on a catastrofuck scale:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/611545/

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/06/slovakia-coronavirus-pandemic-public-trust-media/&ved=0ahUKEwj2n-GfnevpAhVDURUIHYiaCogQxfQBCDYwAw&usg=AOvVaw2QTaB6OYFz9dfrWQyNihXJ

[Steven W]

3 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I don't disagree with that, however in normal circumstances it would take just 24 days for 40,000 people to die in the UK.

It's not good that people have died from this at all, however actual daily deaths (and by that i mean based on date of death) amongst the general populace from Covid-19 are now a very small percentage of all cause deaths per day.

I assume the government know this, but they have done a dreadful job of conveying this to the public.

You're obviously better read up on this than I. 40,000 is really bad - I had no idea that usually that would only take 24 days. Interesting.

Why do the government not make this known - it would provide context for these eye watering numbers

[vikingTON]

3 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Do they? They've got the Tatras, much less crowded and cheaper for skiing tbh.

They're also five hours on shite roads from Bratislava and lower than the Alps, which makes a big difference in a mild winter like the last one. People with enough disposable income go elsewhere than resorts their parents were stuck with during communism.

[Billy Jean King]

They have been over 350 half the days this week. 7 day rolling average still over 250. They are stubbornly high, why show a graph of one area of deaths in isolation it's the daily govt official total I'm talking about.

Granted this is only hospital deaths, but stating that deaths are "stubbornly high" is patently untrue.
They are declining in exactly the fashion you would expect based on looking at the curve everywhere else.
Not sure why this slide isn't used during the briefing tbh

[Todd_is_God]

8 minutes ago, Steven W said:

Why do the government not make this known - it would provide context for these eye watering numbers

No idea.

50,000 excess deaths is obviously terrible, however the flu season this year was extremely mild.

When year end excess deaths are recorded, in the years to come 2020 will not look anywhere near as outrageous as it does at the moment.

No that isn't saying the government response was good, that it doesn't matter, or it hasn't been an utterly shite year for those affected by Covid-19

[vikingTON]

8 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

It's fairly clear that people need to go out to get food. They don't need to go out to go to the toilet.

I'm someone with severe Crohn's and i know just how vital public toilets are in society. But the lockdown is aimed at restricting the contact between different household - and public toilets aren't something you need to go out to do.

But as always, your grown up levels of interaction add a degree of maturity to the debate.


Do you genuinely believe you know better than the Scottish government? Are you really that egotistical?

Just to be clear, i agree that mistakes have been made. But if you genuinely think you know better, without relying on hindsight, then that's quite a bold claim.

And as granny said, you're criticising their lack of strict measures then, and now saying things are being too strict. Were you calling for strict lockdown in February? Maybe you were, but i didn't see many folk who were.
There's no doubt that fear has gripped people, and i actually agree that folk are taking things slightly too seriously, especially when looking to ease things now.

But i get the impression that the Scottish public support this slightly more cautious approach.

A blindfolded chimp throwing darts at a spinning wheel of policy options could have done better than any government across the UK over the past three months: it has been a disaster on every level apart from maintaining NHS capacity.

It's not even remotely 'arrogant' to compare the decisions that this government was doing to others across Europe - not to mention SE Asia where they actually have dealt with these novel virus outbreaks successfully - and conclude that this government was doing it wrong. Which I said at the time often enough so there's not a hint of hindsight judgment going on either. The only arrogance lies with those of a mindset that our government must understand The Science while all the Johnny Foreigner governments do not.

[Todd_is_God]

4 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

They have been over 350 half the days this week. 7 day rolling average still over 250. They are stubbornly high, why show a graph of one area of deaths in isolation it's the daily govt official total I'm talking about.

You are aware the government figures contain deaths stretching back weeks if not months? Yes that graph shows only hospital deaths, but given the ONS figures etc its not umreasonable to infer that deaths in other settings are following a similar trend.

Hospital deaths account for around 50% of all deaths. Double each of those figures if you wish to get closer perhaps to the true daily number and you still get the same decline.

Whilst it is important to record and recognise someone who died 6 weeks ago, for example, it's completely irrelevant to the state of play today. Including it in a rolling 7 day average is, tbh, pointless.

Having a reporting system which is terribly inefficient is not the same as deaths being stubbornly high.

[vikingTON]

8 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

I've been, they're quite nice.

They are, but so is most of Scotland and that doesn't stop external tourism doing a roaring trade here either.

[pandarilla]

A blindfolded chimp throwing darts at a spinning wheel of policy options could have done better than any government across the UK over the past three months: it has been a disaster on every level apart from maintaining NHS capacity.
It's not even remotely 'arrogant' to compare the decisions that this government was doing to others across Europe - not to mention SE Asia where they actually have dealt with these novel virus outbreaks successfully - and conclude that this government was doing it wrong. Which I said at the time often enough so there's not a hint of hindsight judgment going on either. The only arrogance lies with those of a mindset that our government must understand The Science while all the Johnny Foreigner governments do not.

No-one on here is suggesting that our government has handled it better than johnny foreigner.

But your flinging shite at your keyboard is not quite the same as being in a positron to take what would've been very unpopular decisions - had we enacted a lockdown when Slovakia did.

I applaud their handling of it. But you're acting like a child if you think these decisions would've been easy for either the wm or Scottish governments.

[Thereisalight..]

2 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Is there not a law that if places serve food they need to provide toilets?

Public toilets are horrible, coronavirus or not.
Again, with good personal hygiene and being careful not to touch anything you won't catch any disease.

Funny you should say that. There’s a snack kiosk near by that side about 10 foot by 10 foot. No toilets but they get around it as there’s public toilets about a minute walk away. Today I saw the lassie go out from the snack bar with a roll of toilet paper, disappear behind the toilet block and then came back. That got me thinking what the rest of the staff are doing for pee facilities when they’re on an 8 hour shift

28 minutes ago, Steven W said:

You're obviously better read up on this than I. 40,000 is really bad - I had no idea that usually that would only take 24 days. Interesting.

Why do the government not make this known - it would provide context for these eye watering numbers

They don’t make it known because it wouldn’t fit in with the fear they’re instilling in people 

[vikingTON]

9 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

No-one on here is suggesting that our government has handled it better than johnny foreigner.

But your flinging shite at your keyboard is not quite the same as being in a positron to take what would've been very unpopular decisions - had we enacted a lockdown when Slovakia did.

I applaud their handling of it. But you're acting like a child if you think these decisions would've been easy for either the wm or Scottish governments.
 

Continue applauding failure if you want but stop having a tantrum whenever somebody subjects the government's latest measures to rational scrutiny and finds them wanting.

The gold stars to the leading politicians in the country as well as the chief medical officers and senior advisors for 'having to make hard and very unpopular decisions right now' are all in the post btw. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Nobody is applauding them we're just saying because we're tacked onto England and because England didn't lock down for ages after when they should've, that's the main reason we are where we are vs not telling everyone to wear masks.

The guy I was responding literally said that he applauds their handling of the situation.

This 'tacked to England' argument is honking and is thankfully only the very bottom of the barrel in Scottish political debate today. England didn't force the SG to ignore face masks; England didn't release Scottish patients into care homes with the virus; England didn't compel Scotland to keep its entirely separate schools system open weeks longer than any sane country did on the continent. Those are common failures that likely stem from a shared groupthink among official expertise circles but they do not come from the same politically responsible actor. The Scottish Government is big enough to be held to account for its own actions without shielding behind what London was doing at the same time.

[Billy Jean King]

You are aware the government figures contain deaths stretching back weeks if not months? Yes that graph shows only hospital deaths, but given the ONS figures etc its not umreasonable to infer that deaths in other settings are following a similar trend.
Hospital deaths account for around 50% of all deaths. Double each of those figures if you wish to get closer perhaps to the true daily number and you still get the same decline.
Whilst it is important to record and recognise someone who died 6 weeks ago, for example, it's completely irrelevant to the state of play today. Including it in a rolling 7 day average is, tbh, pointless.
Having a reporting system which is terribly inefficient is not the same as deaths being stubbornly high.

It can include deaths on the moon but as long as you keep using the same source for comparison it's a constant, daily and weekly figure which makes my comparison perfectly valid.

[dundeefc1783]

You are aware the government figures contain deaths stretching back weeks if not months? Yes that graph shows only hospital deaths, but given the ONS figures etc its not umreasonable to infer that deaths in other settings are following a similar trend.
Hospital deaths account for around 50% of all deaths. Double each of those figures if you wish to get closer perhaps to the true daily number and you still get the same decline.
Whilst it is important to record and recognise someone who died 6 weeks ago, for example, it's completely irrelevant to the state of play today. Including it in a rolling 7 day average is, tbh, pointless.
Having a reporting system which is terribly inefficient is not the same as deaths being stubbornly high.

Looking at this from a slightly different angle so bear with me. I fully understand that these figures involve a number of deaths that have occurred in previous weeks months etc which makes figures hard to read but how many people have died this week that haven't been reported yet?

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Too many Independence fan boys have no interest in holding the SNP accountable as they see the party as the only way to get that to utopia of independence.

In the mean time they are happy burying their head in the sand and blaming everything on England.