Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[ICTChris]

Exclusive scenes from the staff room

 

One of the funniest things about Scotland is that no-one thinks they are middle class.

[Todd_is_God]

30 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

People going on foreign holidays just now are the hard of thinking. That would be ok if it weren't for the fact that their actions have consequences for the community at large, rather than only the hard of thinking themselves.

I'm not sure that's fair. Given the prevelance of the virus in many places is at a not too dissimilar level or lower than here, I'm not sure how spending a fortnight largely outdoors in a resort abroad is any more 'dangerous' than spending the weekend in various trains, bars and restaurants in Glasgow, yet no one is suggesting anyone doing that is "hard of thinking"

Given the SG did absolutely nothing about limiting movement from England when when it was proudly claiming it was five times higher there than it was here, they can get off their high horse about foreign travel.

[Guest JTS98]

3 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I'm not sure that's fair. Given the prevelance of the virus in many places is at a not too dissimilar level or lower than here, I'm not sure how spending a fortnight largely outdoors in a resort abroad is any more 'dangerous' than spending the weekend in various trains, bars and restaurants in Glasgow, yet no one is suggesting anyone doing that is "hard of thinking"

Given the SG did absolutely nothing about limiting movement from England when when it was proudly claiming it was five times higher there than it was here, they can get off their high horse about foreign travel.

1) New clusters appear all the time. Travel makes them more likely to spread. Very simple stuff, embraced by much of the world. Much of the world that has consistently handled this better than the UK/Scotland.

2) They should be limiting travel to England too.

[Todd_is_God]

2 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

1) New clusters appear all the time. Travel makes them more likely to spread. Very simple stuff, embraced by much of the world. Much of the world that has consistently handled this better than the UK/Scotland.

2) They should be limiting travel to England too.

1) European travel restarted as early as May. Much of the world has embraced international travel. Why shouldn't we?

2) But they aren't.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Todd_is_God said:

1) European travel restarted as early as May. Much of the world has embraced international travel. Why shouldn't we?

2) But they aren't.

Perhaps do some number work. Comparisons.

 

[Bairnardo]

Exclusive scenes from the staff room

 
One of the funniest things about Scotland is that no-one thinks they are middle class.

Who and what is middle class? Does Uni education make one middle class by default? Even in a country with free Universities? I know a lot of degree educated people who could not, by any definition, be said to have come from a middle class background. Does going to school for a bit longer than everyone else automatically put them there?

[Todd_is_God]

5 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Perhaps do some number work. Comparisons.

Instead of being a condescending panic merchant, why don't you do some number work? Show me how it's more damgerous to go lie by a pool for two weeks than it is to get a train in to town (where ~50% don't bother wearing their mask) to sit in a fully booked 1m zone restaurant followed by a fully booked 1m zone bar for a few hours.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Todd_is_God

[vikingTON]

 

16 minutes ago, scottmcleanscontacts said:

There's nothing nonsense there.

Very many teachers today are from working class backgrounds. Many were brought up in the schemes. The fact that they've done alright for themselves and found a career that pays pretty well doesn't make them middle class, no matter how much you protest.

Erm yes it does: it's called 'social mobility'. People move from a working-class background to being middle class all the time; others fall from middle-class backgrounds into working-class states over the long run as well.

The only people protesting far too much here are teachers themselves, who like to think that they still represent the voiceless lumpenproletariat by swishing from Newton Mearns to the school gate in their Audi each day. 

Quote

Simply put, an individual's earning power alone does not define their class.

I never said that it did. Being in a white-collar profession that also lends you much more earning power than the median worker in the country does in fact make you middle class though. It is primarily the combination of wealth and employment status that defines that category in the UK. 

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Todd_is_God said:

Why don't you do some number work? Show me how it's more damgerous to go lie by a pool for two weeks than it is to get a train in to town (where ~50% don't bother wearing their mask) to sit in a 1m zone restaurant followed by a 1m zone bar for a few hours.

That would be pointless. Because you've made up your mind.

Look at countries that have stopped or heavily restricted travel in and out.

You can start with Malaysia. Six times the population of Scotland. 128 deaths. No excess mortality in the country in 2020 for other causes as per most recent check.

Or Morocco. Seven times the population of Scotland. Heavily limited international travel. Roughly half the deaths.

Or Sri Lanka. Four times the population of Scotland. International travel off the menu. Twelve (12) deaths.

Or Thailand. About 14 times the population of Scotland. 58 deaths. Nobody is popping off to Malaysia or Vietnam on holiday.

Go and find some more. Movement is silly.

[Wee Willie]

11 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

Support for Independence doesn't necessarily equate to support for the SNP.

I'd vote yes tomorrow, but I'll never vote for the SNP again until NS is no longer the leader.

 

11 hours ago, alta-pete said:

‘mon to f**k Todd. I admire your hard work, self belief and damned indefatigably on this thread but how is Scotland going to become independent without NS or the SNP?
 

Where’s the political charisma and message, seemingly (to me anyway) currently well hidden from view, that’ll unlock the whole process and  deliver that without them both? 

 

10 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

That sounds like a problem for the SNP to solve tbh.

If they want my vote back, they need to earn it.

They might not miss one vote, but if enough others have no confidence in NS and feel the same then they'll have a problem as you can be certain those who feel strongly enough against Independence or her / them to vote Conservative, Labour or Lib Dem in May will do so.

The SNP will still win most seats, but their pro-indy majority currently only exists because it is propped up by the Greens. They should remember that when talking down to and lecturing people each day.

 

Surely the SNP is a means to an end.

It's no helping the Independence cause if you're no voting for the SNP in an election.

Are you no throwing the toys out of the pram?

[ICTChris]

3 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

17 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Exclusive scenes from the staff room

 
One of the funniest things about Scotland is that no-one thinks they are middle class.

Who and what is middle class? Does Uni education make one middle class by default? Even in a country with free Universities? I know a lot of degree educated people who could not, by any definition, be said to have come from a middle class background. Does going to school for a bit longer than everyone else automatically put them there?

As the seething Inverclyde revolutionary popular front states above, it's a combination of wealth and employment status that defines your social class.  Like any definition there are fuzzy edges but the general standard is the ABC1 used by most market research companies.  

Grade	Social class	Chief income earner's occupation	Frequency in 2008[3]	Frequency in 2016[4]
A	upper middle class	Higher managerial, administrative or professional	4%	4%
B	middle middle class	Intermediate managerial, administrative or professional	23%	23%
C1	lower middle class	Supervisory or clerical and junior managerial, administrative or professional	29%	28%
C2	skilled working class	Skilled manual workers	21%	20%
D	working class	Semi-skilled and unskilled manual workers	15%	15%
E	non working	State pensioners, casual and lowest grade workers, unemployed with state benefits only	8%	10%

[scottmcleanscontacts]

 
I never said that it did. Being in a white-collar profession that also lends you much more earning power than the median worker in the country does in fact make you middle class though. It is primarily the combination of wealth and employment status that defines that category in the UK. 

I'm very well aware of what 'social mobility' is. Perhaps in a country where people had to pay for their further education then I would maybe suggest you have something of an argument.

In Scotland, the system allows people from any background to educate themselves to degree level and beyond. Providing they have the capability they are then able to go on and resume employment in places that would probably have been impossible in days gone by. This in itself does not change an individual's social class, no matter how much you might think it does and no matter how much the macro Sociological viewpoint tells you it does.

From a Socio-economic point of view, yes, a teacher earns a decent wage, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, but let us be clear here, even the top earners are banging in about 600/700 quid a week. There's many a joiner, plumber, whatever, earning that and more and I don't see them being pigeon holed in to the middle class category.

You, it seems to me, clearly have an issue with teachers or at least the profession, and that is fine but you just roll out the same old tired tropes and clichés.

[Todd_is_God]

21 minutes ago, Wee Willie said:

Surely the SNP is a means to an end.

It's no helping the Independence cause if you're no voting for the SNP in an election.

Are you no throwing the toys out of the pram?

I'm not wanting to argue with you as I know you've had an SNP hat, scarf and season ticket for about 60 years.

I really don't care whether or not they are a means to an end, especially when there is no guarantee that end is any time soon.

They've made a number of errors over the last 5 months, and the tone of their daily briefings has consistently pissed me off.

They take for granted that they will get the pro-Indy vote, which has caused them to take their eye off the ball in terms of looking after the day to day stuff.

They've lost my vote, and it will take more than "but you need to!" to win it back.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Todd_is_God

[Melanius Mullarkey]

28 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

1) European travel restarted as early as May. Much of the world has embraced international travel. Why shouldn't we?

 

Nobody is "embracing" international travel.   

Global flights numbers are still running at 50% reduction compared to normal, presumably because nobody is embracing international travel. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104036/novel-coronavirus-weekly-flights-change-airlines-region/

[Bairnardo]

As the seething Inverclyde revolutionary popular front states above, it's a combination of wealth and employment status that defines your social class.  Like any definition there are fuzzy edges but the general standard is the ABC1 used by most market research companies.  

Grade	Social class	Chief income earner's occupation	Frequency in 2008[3]	Frequency in 2016[4]
A	upper middle class	Higher managerial, administrative or professional	4%	4%
B	middle middle class	Intermediate managerial, administrative or professional	23%	23%
C1	lower middle class	Supervisory or clerical and junior managerial, administrative or professional	29%	28%
C2	skilled working class	Skilled manual workers	21%	20%
D	working class	Semi-skilled and unskilled manual workers	15%	15%
E	non working	State pensioners, casual and lowest grade workers, unemployed with state benefits only	8%	10%

Given that concept of "class" in general disgusts me, I am probably biased towards just calling all class definitions pish.

But there are folk that earn a good screw and have a nice house yet their political beliefs and affiliations, maybe even activism take down a socialist route. Do we completely separate these things from class? Do the values you hold not come into it? What if you can afford private healthcare but dont believe in it? What if you can afford lrovate schooling but dont believe in that? I am asking because I genuinely dont know. But then, I dont understand the clamour to put people in a box. My opinion is that it all stems from a time when your "class" was pretty much decided by someone else and your life would then be defined by it. That we allow that to continue even in diluted form is a bit of an embarrassment tbh.

If anyone wants to call me middle class then use it as a stick to beat me with, quite frankly they can go and f**k themselves.

FWIW I find it hard to class someone who has to work for a living, and would be unable to stay above the bread line if made redundant as anything other than working class. I dont actually think there is a middle class really. Just Tory arseholes who label themselves as such because they dont want to be considered a peasant.

[Billy Jean King]

Nobody is "embracing" international travel.   
Global flights numbers are still running at 50% reduction compared to normal, presumably because nobody is embracing international travel. 
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104036/novel-coronavirus-weekly-flights-change-airlines-region/

Yip the travel industry is on the bones of it's arse and very few countries have unrestricted travel in or out.

[scottmcleanscontacts]

Given that concept of "class" in general disgusts me, I am probably biased towards just calling all class definitions pish.

But there are folk that earn a good screw and have a nice house yet their political beliefs and affiliations, maybe even activism take down a socialist route. Do we completely separate these things from class? Do the values you hold not come into it? What if you can afford private healthcare but dont believe in it? What if you can afford lrovate schooling but dont believe in that? I am asking because I genuinely dont know. But then, I dont understand the clamour to put people in a box. My opinion is that it all stems from a time when your "class" was pretty much decided by someone else and your life would then be defined by it. That we allow that to continue even in diluted form is a bit of an embarrassment tbh.

If anyone wants to call me middle class then use it as a stick to beat me with, quite frankly they can go and f**k themselves.

FWIW I find it hard to class someone who has to work for a living, and would be unable to stay above the bread line if made redundant as anything other than working class. I dont actually think there is a middle class really. Just Tory arseholes who label themselves as such because they dont want to be considered a peasant.

Class definitions are pish.

From a Sociological and Political viewpoint, many thinkers/Scholars reckon it holds little to no weight.

[vikingTON]

11 minutes ago, scottmcleanscontacts said:

I'm very well aware of what 'social mobility' is. Perhaps in a country where people had to pay for their further education then I would maybe suggest you have something of an argument.

In Scotland, the system allows people from any background to educate themselves to degree level and beyond. Providing they have the capability they are then able to go on and resume employment in places that would probably have been impossible in days gone by. This in itself does not change an individual's social class, no matter how much you might think it does and no matter how much the macro Sociological viewpoint tells you it does.
 

Erm yes it does; when you move from a background of unskilled/skilled labour to a current occupation as a white collar professional then you are in fact moving social class as well. Teaching is to the scheme goblins of Scotland what getting a son in the priesthood used to be for peasant families: the most obvious means of climbing the social ladder available to them. 

Whether the education needed to get to that stage is provided free of charge by the state or put on a long-term income-attached loan is utterly irrelevant. 

Quote

From a Socio-economic point of view, yes, a teacher earns a decent wage, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, but let us be clear here, even the top earners are banging in about 600/700 quid a week. There's many a joiner, plumber, whatever, earning that and more and I don't see them being pigeon holed in to the middle class category.

A: Because joiners, plumbers and builders are not white collar professionals but rather blue collar skilled labourers/tradesmen. There have always been skilled workers who earned a good living: there are even in some cases unskilled workers who earn very good money as well. But as social class is not the same as 'how much do you earn?', that doesn't make them members of the fucking aristocracy either. 

Quote

You, it seems to me, clearly have an issue with teachers or at least the profession, and that is fine but you just roll out the same old tired tropes and clichés.

The only issue I'm seeing here is with you and other teachers' laughable spit and sawdust working man routine, which is fooling absolutely no-one. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by vikingTON

[Bairnardo]

Class definitions are pish.

From a Sociological and Political viewpoint, many thinkers/Scholars reckon it holds little to no weight.

Trying to put some actual credence into something that was invented by the haves to keep the have nots under their boot is never going to hold much weight tbh.

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Nobody is "embracing" international travel.   

Global flights numbers are still running at 50% reduction compared to normal, presumably because nobody is embracing international travel. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104036/novel-coronavirus-weekly-flights-change-airlines-region/

I'm amazed it's as high as 50%, thought it would be more like 10%.