Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[superbigal]

19 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I know there are a handful of posters on here who work at universities, so I suppose this inquiry is really directed at them.

I kind of want to ask, genuinely in good faith, about what's happening in the sector as regards direction and instruction.

This is prompted by my own daughter's experience as she starts her second year.  She was actually in a university building yesterday for the first ever time.  She's not back in for another month and is scheduled to be in again twice in November.  Even yesterday's lecture was delivered via Zoom.  I'm a bit enraged, but I know that other courses there and elsewhere are even worse, while some are much better.

I'm intrigued by how different arrangements can be.  Are unions instrumental here?  Do faculties have the autonomy to simply decide their own path.  What pressures are being exerted and from what directions are they arriving?

I do struggle to see how such a pale service can now be justified, but I'm honestly wanting to understand how it's been arrived at.

That's a lot of questions, but I'm needing to gain a little insight here, if only to try and resist launching a reactionary rant.

I think if I was a student again I would be 5 times more likely to turn up to a zoom lecture than get out of bed for a real one.

[Elixir]

2 hours ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

I see the "ahve always been left wing but" folk who have definitely not lost their minds are now quoting Andrew Lilico to support their views. Big brained posts for big brained posters

And... what? I couldn't really give a toss where your political compass is pointing on this. What matters are people collectively who 'definitely haven't lost their minds', as you put it, with regards to psychotic policy decisions made under the guise of 'public health'. See: 'progressives' who still support the EU but want us to have a North Korea style closed border.

So you can take your condescension elsewhere, thanks.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Booked in for my booster for Thursday, will also be offered the flu vaccine which I'll take for the first time. Going to be absolutely hoaching with antibodies

Got my letter for this year's flu jab today - this Saturday, which seems kind of early, but massive I'm just thinking it's normally later in the year. Any road up, I'll take all the jabs going. Spent fifty years hardly bothering the NHS, and the last seven proper kicking the arse out of it.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

4 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

Causation and correlation are two very different things.

masks are proven to stop the transmission of airborn viruses though. and their have been many published studies to that effect

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landig/article/PIIS2589-7500(21)00003-0/fulltext

here is an article in the Lancet with many references. Read that and get back to me.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, superbigal said:

I think if I was a student again I would be 5 times more likely to turn up to a zoom lecture than get out of bed for a real one.

The irony is that physical, in person, attendance was actually required yesterday for a lecture delivered remotely anyway.

That's hardly the point though.  The absence of in person seminars or tutorials leads, in my view, to a pretty incomplete educational experience.  That's before we consider the ongoing social damage of denying students the chance to meet and gather.  

I genuinely find it quite inexplicable that staff would either wish or be allowed to work in this way.  I'm trying to gain an understanding of why and how it's able to happen.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

13 minutes ago, Elixir said:

And... what? I couldn't really give a toss where your political compass is pointing on this. What matters are people collectively who 'definitely haven't lost their minds', as you put it, with regards to psychotic policy decisions made under the guise of 'public health'. See: 'progressives' who still support the EU but want us to have a North Korea style closed border.

So you can take your condescension elsewhere, thanks.

I will be less condescending when you respond without word salad my friend 

[Donathan]

I actually think the countries that have done best have implemented these interventions that are significantly more impactful than face coverings:

 

 

1. Minimise the number of infections seeded at the border. No non-essential travel, quarantine hotel and testing for those who do come in etc 

 

2. Very aggressive contact tracing when there is a case, direct contacts need to quarantine in a hotel and daily testing. Secondary contacts (contacts of contacts) self-isolate at home with regular testing. Actual enforcement of those self-isolating as well including digital surveillance and police visits at home.

 

I’m not saying either of those two policies should have been implemented in Western democracies but I do think that such totalitarianism is the main reason why the countries you mentioned, among others, have been less adversely affected by the pandemic.  

[Empty It]

Better hope you don't need to work at Ibrox.

Would love to turn away bigots at Ibrox because they haven't been vaccinated.

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

If masks weren't effective why have countries with strong mask wearing tendencies like China and South Korea performed so much better than everyone else?

1) 'Masks' are not the same as keeping a grotty unwashed 'face covering' around for four months at a time, which has been actual practice in the UK.

2) China's success has got much more to do with welding infected folk into their apartment blocks than making them wear a mask. 

3) The face covering requirement has completely failed to stop three additional waves in Scotland, while the reckless Tory decision to bin that requirement resulted in no such recent wave.

4) None of this fucking matters anyway because we are falling over stacks of highly effective vaccines. 

[The Master]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I know there are a handful of posters on here who work at universities, so I suppose this inquiry is really directed at them.

I kind of want to ask, genuinely in good faith, about what's happening in the sector as regards direction and instruction.

This is prompted by my own daughter's experience as she starts her second year.  She was actually in a university building yesterday for the first ever time.  She's not back in for another month and is scheduled to be in again twice in November.  Even yesterday's lecture was delivered via Zoom.  I'm a bit enraged, but I know that other courses there and elsewhere are even worse, while some are much better.

I'm intrigued by how different arrangements can be.  Are unions instrumental here?  Do faculties have the autonomy to simply decide their own path.  What pressures are being exerted and from what directions are they arriving?

I do struggle to see how such a pale service can now be justified, but I'm honestly wanting to understand how it's been arrived at.

That's a lot of questions, but I'm needing to gain a little insight here, if only to try and resist launching a reactionary rant.

In our department, capacity restrictions mean all lectures are online. I’m not sure if that applies university-wide, or if it’s a case of our lectures (Computer Science) being better suited to online than other subjects that then get priority for lecture theatres. 

All years have at least one module with an on-campus lab session. But again, capacity limits make it impossible for all modules to have this  because rooms are at half capacity, meaning each lab needs at least two sessions. 

As I understand it, the official guidance is 1m distancing. It’s then up to the individual universities how they work with that.  

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

1) 'Masks' are not the same as keeping a grotty unwashed 'face covering' around for four months at a time, which has been actual practice in the UK.

2) China's success has got much more to do with welding infected folk into their apartment blocks than making them wear a mask. 

3) The face covering requirement has completely failed to stop three additional waves in Scotland, while the reckless Tory decision to bin that requirement resulted in no such recent wave.

4) None of this fucking matters anyway because we are falling over stacks of highly effective vaccines. 

That is about mask wearing culture rather than masks themselves.

If you want to make the argument that masks are ineffective because the public haven't respected the proper way to wear and use masks then go for it. There is very little to no social stigma for not wearing a mask in areas where it is currently against the law. Mask laws have been pointless because they haven't been enforced.

The fact is that in countries where there is a culture of wearing masks and a social stigma for non-compliance masks have been an effective tool for reducing transmission and I linked to a scientific journal article that proved that point.

[Billy Jean King]

The irony is that physical, in person, attendance was actually required yesterday for a lecture delivered remotely anyway.
That's hardly the point though.  The absence of in person seminars or tutorials leads, in my view, to a pretty incomplete educational experience.  That's before we consider the ongoing social damage of denying students the chance to meet and gather.  
I genuinely find it quite inexplicable that staff would either wish or be allowed to work in this way.  I'm trying to gain an understanding of why and how it's able to happen.

Not sure which Uni or faculty but my son is at Glasgow and while lectures are remote, tutorials are face to face so he's in Uni about once a week. Not ideal and not really what was discussed earlier in the summer but the line currently is it's 1st semester only but most on his course don't see them reverting to in person lectures during winter and expect this for most of the year.

[HeartsOfficialMoaner]

2 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

If masks weren't effective why have countries with strong mask wearing tendencies like China and South Korea performed so much better than everyone else?

Mask wearing is just a part of their overall attitude towards being hygienic, we have an opposite approach to being clean?  

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

Just now, HeartsOfficialMoaner said:

Mask wearing is just a part of their overall attitude towards being hygienic, we have an opposite approach to being clean?  

Yes. Britain is a manky as f**k country. Litter in britain is shocking wwhy wouldn't everything else also be terrible.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/07/british-litter-worst-in-world-david-sedaris-tells-mps

[vikingTON]

1 minute ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

That is about mask wearing culture rather than masks themselves.

If you want to make the argument that masks are ineffective because the public haven't respected the proper way to wear and use masks then go for it. There is very little to no social stigma for not wearing a mask in areas where it is currently against the law. Mask laws have been pointless because they haven't been enforced.

Erm no, mask use has demonstrably dropped off in areas where it is no longer mandated, such as in comparable public spaces in England to Scotland. If masks worked in these settings, then infection rates would therefore have increased in England compared to Scotland, as those who do respect a legal obligation only dropped out of compliance. 

But they haven't. Instead the exact opposite trajectory of cases has played over two months. Demonstrating as if it were needed that the real world effect of them is useless. 

Quote

The fact is that in countries where there is a culture of wearing masks and a social stigma for non-compliance masks have been an effective tool for reducing transmission and I linked to a scientific journal article that proved that point.

That's not a fact and the source that you linked to is in fact a comment piece calling for masks to be used rather than a scientific paper demonstrating their value. The giveaway being the fucking 'COMMENT' header on the top left of the page. 

Try constructing your argument around evidence first rather than Google trawling anything to back it up later. 

[craigkillie]

2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I know there are a handful of posters on here who work at universities, so I suppose this inquiry is really directed at them.

I kind of want to ask, genuinely in good faith, about what's happening in the sector as regards direction and instruction.

This is prompted by my own daughter's experience as she starts her second year.  She was actually in a university building yesterday for the first ever time.  She's not back in for another month and is scheduled to be in again twice in November.  Even yesterday's lecture was delivered via Zoom.  I'm a bit enraged, but I know that other courses there and elsewhere are even worse, while some are much better.

I'm intrigued by how different arrangements can be.  Are unions instrumental here?  Do faculties have the autonomy to simply decide their own path.  What pressures are being exerted and from what directions are they arriving?

I do struggle to see how such a pale service can now be justified, but I'm honestly wanting to understand how it's been arrived at.

That's a lot of questions, but I'm needing to gain a little insight here, if only to try and resist launching a reactionary rant.

There are a couple of things at play I think. The advice from the government on what was and wasn't allowed came quite late in the day and therefore a lot of plans had to be made based on the existing rules at the time. I think they were taken a bit by surprise by the move to drop social distancing - I've heard from a few different people that a lot of industries were expecting that to be retained well in to next year.

The unions have definitely played a part too, university staff unions are probably one of few that still wield a decent bit of power, and there was definitely a push from that end to ensure "safe" working conditions. Based on discussions with colleagues, I reckon there are still a large chunk of lecturers and staff who are still basically living in last April in terms of their views on covid, particularly those that have nice comfortable working spaces at home and have no real desire to return to the office regularly.

In my experience the decisions are typically being made at university level rather than individual departments, though they may have some flexibility. For us, we were told we needed to keep 1m distancing, which meant that it was basically impossible to schedule a lot of classes since there simply aren't rooms big enough to accommodate larger classes, and there aren't enough rooms to accommodate all of the smaller classes at the same time.

Edited September 21, 2021 by craigkillie

[Monkey Tennis]

10 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

The irony is that physical, in person, attendance was actually required yesterday for a lecture delivered remotely anyway.
That's hardly the point though.  The absence of in person seminars or tutorials leads, in my view, to a pretty incomplete educational experience.  That's before we consider the ongoing social damage of denying students the chance to meet and gather.  
I genuinely find it quite inexplicable that staff would either wish or be allowed to work in this way.  I'm trying to gain an understanding of why and how it's able to happen.

Not sure which Uni or faculty but my son is at Glasgow and while lectures are remote, tutorials are face to face so he's in Uni about once a week. Not ideal and not really what was discussed earlier in the summer but the line currently is it's 1st semester only but most on his course don't see them reverting to in person lectures during winter and expect this for most of the year.

Yes, she's at Glasgow too.

He's getting a better deal than her, but it's still not great.  

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

2 minutes ago, virginton said:

Erm no, mask use has demonstrably dropped off in areas where it is no longer mandated, such as in comparable public spaces in England to Scotland. If masks worked in these settings, then infection rates would therefore have increased in England compared to Scotland, as those who do respect a legal obligation only dropped out of compliance. 

But they haven't. Instead the exact opposite trajectory of cases has played over two months. Demonstrating as if it were needed that the real world effect of them is useless. 

That's not a fact and the source that you linked to is in fact a comment piece calling for masks to be used rather than a scientific paper demonstrating their value. The giveaway being the fucking 'COMMENT' header on the top left of the page. 

Try constructing your argument around evidence first rather than Google trawling anything to back it up later. 

The source I linked to is an article summarising the scientific papers linked below it.

 

I guess that was too hard for you to comprehend even though I wrote it in my post.

[Elixir]

1 hour ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

I will be less condescending when you respond without word salad my friend 

Maybe you should invest in some reading lessons, bud.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

The irony is that physical, in person, attendance was actually required yesterday for a lecture delivered remotely anyway.

That's hardly the point though.  The absence of in person seminars or tutorials leads, in my view, to a pretty incomplete educational experience.  That's before we consider the ongoing social damage of denying students the chance to meet and gather.  

Students all have social media and chat groups, the idea that they are being 'denied' the chance to meet and gather is laughable. 

Quote

I genuinely find it quite inexplicable that staff would either wish or be allowed to work in this way.  I'm trying to gain an understanding of why and how it's able to happen.

They're probably doing it because:

- not all students are at the double vaccinated stage yet, so can't avoid automatic self-isolation rules

- there's been a huge and predictable wave of community cases since the infection factories roared back into life, and

- the SG's routine shitting the bed antics still have to be accounted for in planning.

Once those three obstacles are cleared or at least lowered then the argument against in-class learning falls away. That seems to me like a much more sensible approach though than just pretending that things will return to normal from August and whatever consequences that would have had on society.